WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.880 It's Saturday, March 2nd, 2019. This is Room in the Trees. 00:00:05.880 --> 00:00:15.800 A podcast about perfection and not perfection and good and great and making and avoiding and doing it and chicken. 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:17.520 Chicken. Chicken. 00:00:19.140 --> 00:00:34.980 Room in the Trees is hosted by Trent Reynolds and me, Sabrina Ward-Harrison. Show notes and links can be found at roominthetrees.com. And if you want to be a patron and support us, you can go to patreon.com forward slash room. 00:00:35.300 --> 00:00:50.420 And please, please, please, please go to iTunes and leave us a review. We'd love it if you'd leave us a five-star review. it helps us to reach a wider audience and that's probably one of the best ways that you can help us spread the word, spread the podcast. 00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:57.020 Just really grateful for the one. They've been so wonderful and meaningful to read. Love hearing about. 00:00:57.460 --> 00:00:59.460 Do you have some snacks there? 00:01:00.820 --> 00:01:02.260 I heard a little crinkling. 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:15.140 I don't have any snacks right here, but I did cook some. don't tell me did you 00:01:15.140 --> 00:01:19.300 did you throw a little loin a little loin on the barbie 00:01:19.300 --> 00:01:20.560 I did a double 00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:23.300 a double loin 00:01:23.300 --> 00:01:30.900 yeah I saw I was like I'm all over I'm done and then I saw that they were on sale 00:01:30.900 --> 00:01:35.600 those sales get you every time 00:01:35.600 --> 00:01:40.580 So I got two more, and I'm trying them with smoked paprika. 00:01:41.580 --> 00:01:42.260 Oh, wow. 00:01:42.660 --> 00:01:59.700 Yeah, I was visiting my friend Vanessa this weekend, and her husband Bob was all about the pork tenderloin on the Instapot. So I have an Instapot, and I'm really excited to learn more about what I can do in the Instapot. 00:01:59.700 --> 00:02:39.720 That's fantastic. We are big insta-potters. Are you? Yeah. Well, I shouldn't say we. Laura does a lot in the insta-pot. She does broth for just good for her digestive system. And insta-pot's good for making broth. when you were going through the chicken binge year yeah it was a year right it was a year of chicken couple years of chicken so are you feeling like the pork loin has the state power no I don't think it's consistently 00:02:39.720 --> 00:02:49.300 but chicken I love chicken but it has to be chicken I can't I can't, I never feel I can get enough meat in the other, the other. 00:02:49.540 --> 00:02:54.660 The other regions. No, no chicken. 00:02:56.680 --> 00:02:58.680 This is going to be like a 10 part series. 00:02:59.480 --> 00:03:24.600 I wanted to share a little snack with you. Yes, please, please. I purposefully held onto the wrapper after eating it this afternoon because I wanted to tell you about it and I lost the wrapper, but I found it again online. Yeah. This snack is called Lox Sesame Snaps. So Lox is L-O-U-C-K-S. I don't know if I've... Have I told you about these before? Because I've been enjoying them for years. 00:03:24.820 --> 00:03:28.420 No, but I had them... I loved Sesame Snaps when I was a little girl. 00:03:28.580 --> 00:03:54.980 When I was a kid, we would go... out on Halloween, get all the candy. And I remember getting the little sesame blocks, like kind of the size of a, of a Lego or close, maybe a little bit longer. Um, and I did not like them when I was a kid. I remember thinking, okay, you know, there's a, the candy that's kind of the throwaway candy. Yeah. The, you know, when I was a kid, almond joy, no thanks. 00:03:54.980 --> 00:03:55.480 Yeah. 00:03:55.400 --> 00:04:58.700 When I'm an adult, I enjoy me some mom and joy. But these sesame blocks, I just remember not liking them at all. So fast forward, you know, a couple decades, and I see locked sesame snaps in 7-Eleven. They're delicious. conveniently located right next to the cash register so i threw it out there yeah and i love these things love them yeah they're so good and they they have chocolate versions and chocolate versions are really solid i don't think that's something like a band of chocolate along the bottom of it they're stripes i believe stripes of chocolate delicious Yes. Let me see. There's a dark chocolate sesame snaps, but I don't think you would want to, like I could eat the regular sesame snaps all the time. The chocolate sesame snaps, they're a little bit, you know, they're every once in a while, which brings us to desert food. Or desert island food, not desert food. Desert island food, have we talked about that before? 00:04:58.700 --> 00:04:59.920 No, uh-uh. 00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:26.940 So it seems like I was gonna go here earlier in our conversation, but I was having a little hard time getting it out. But it seems like chicken is one of your desert foods, chicken breasts. That's something that you could take to a desert island. and be content with for, you know, indefinitely for the rest of your life. Is that a fair assessment? It's a desert island food? 00:05:27.380 --> 00:05:30.640 Yeah, but like it's a solid protein. Like, yes, I could eat, yes. 00:05:31.100 --> 00:05:41.700 So, I mean, if you only had a limited number of foods available to you. Right, right. I'm saying like this is something that's, you know, good food. You always like it and it doesn't wear out easily. 00:05:42.500 --> 00:05:43.600 What are yours? 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:48.760 Well, sesame snaps. I think I could go on sesame snaps for quite a while. 00:05:48.780 --> 00:06:09.060 Oh, I mean, if we're talking about this delicious... I mean, chicken I just eat because it's just some protein and it's not that bad for you, but... like a yummy thing. That's a whole, I could eat sesame snaps for a long time. I love those. I might love they're sticky and kind of dangerous for your teeth. 00:06:09.080 --> 00:06:14.120 Yes. You like the teeth danger, don't you? I mean, you, you're a risky. 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:15.240 I played. 00:06:17.960 --> 00:06:20.980 I played, I played loose and wild on my teeth. 00:06:24.200 --> 00:06:27.600 Oh, I love the image of loose and wild teeth. 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:39.620 I just watched our beautiful, our decisive action video film piece. It's just so, I'm so excited for people to watch it. It's so much fun to see. 00:06:40.180 --> 00:06:41.120 Yeah, it really is. 00:06:41.500 --> 00:06:45.600 It's coming, guys. So close. We did the final pass through today, I think. 00:06:45.740 --> 00:06:50.620 Yeah, did you watch the most recent version? And it seemed like we were really close. Yep. Yeah. 00:06:50.900 --> 00:06:51.400 Yep. 00:06:51.780 --> 00:06:53.800 Kate's done a great job. Yeah. 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:56.440 So what are we talking about today? 00:06:56.720 --> 00:07:24.120 Well, we got a question from Elise Ash, who is a great, who went on my Italy retreat back in 2000. And she had a question I posted on Instagram stories for people to ask any questions that they wanted us to maybe just talk about. And so her question was, I need to pull it up. done is more important than perfect versus good is the enemy of great. 00:07:24.400 --> 00:07:24.900 Right. 00:07:25.220 --> 00:07:28.320 So that's interesting. Versus good is the enemy of great. 00:07:28.900 --> 00:07:29.760 Right. Hmm. 00:07:30.280 --> 00:07:55.600 The question is, which is a more valid, valid approach to art making or which is a more practical approach or which is the, I mean, is it, or we're saying which is, which is right and which is wrong? Because I can see instances where, I mean, obviously, they're both sayings that have been around for a long time. Maybe they apply in different ways. 00:07:56.180 --> 00:07:58.480 Yeah, you could argue both sides. 00:07:59.140 --> 00:08:02.220 Yeah. Okay, let's argue both sides. Okay. 00:08:02.900 --> 00:09:52.780 So I'll talk about, for me, in regards to done versus perfect, and perfect can be an enemy of perfect. getting stuff done and finished and complete. So, for example, I've been reflecting a lot as I'm preparing to teach about creating your own book. You know, I've been reflecting on the limitation aspect of what was upon me when I made Spilling Open and how if I had had five years to make it, I don't think it would have been as ineffective of a book. I don't think it would have been as honest of a book. I think it would have been highly edited. I think it would have been, it wouldn't have the vitality to it. And I think that that's a critical thing to take into consideration when working on certain types of projects. For example, a book that I think that is a longer form piece. that's sequential. And so what I'm really, those limitations on just do it. Just, it's the act of making it and that there can be more than one. There can always be revisions. but you don't really know who are we to judge if it's good enough or not. And I think that when we think that we're the ones who can judge if something's good or bad or a page is good or not, we don't, we don't, we can't really call that shot. You know, I think certain pages I wasn't, wouldn't have published because I thought they weren't that great of spreads. They weren't as strong of spreads in my mind, but they happened to looking back contain some of the, the words, the writing that seems to be most resonant with people. 00:09:53.780 --> 00:09:54.280 Right. 00:09:54.660 --> 00:09:56.000 Uh, so, 00:09:56.280 --> 00:09:56.780 uh, 00:09:56.700 --> 00:10:07.920 That's something I really feel was important to adapt into the limitations to get something done. 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:09.820 Yeah. 00:10:10.820 --> 00:10:44.240 So the whole idea of perfection, you know, something being perfect. Yeah. points to, you know, our sense of expectation of what the art ought to be or needs to be or what even perfection is. Right. There's a lot of, there's a lot built into that, you know, that, um, and part of the difficulty of art is that it's never been done before, right? What you're making is, you know, something that you're bringing something into the world that hasn't been in the world before. 00:10:44.940 --> 00:10:45.440 Right. 00:10:45.240 --> 00:13:36.760 So what you're trying to do is you're trying to match this internal expectation and image to this thing that's, becoming in the real world, right? That you're, that you're putting together. So, so there is often that tension of like something, uh, coming out. That's not really what you had in your mind. Right. Yeah. And it's so hard to, cause it's not a direct comparison. You're taking something that's very fleeting and abstract in your head, these ideas and feelings and emotions and trying to translate that into a physical object or an image. And I think you're always going to have that kind of let down because, or not always, sometimes it can be the opposite. Sometimes it can be more transcendent than even exists in your imagination or in your feelings, I think. I don't know, the whole idea of your artwork not being done until it's perfect is, to me points more at the like a personality trait you know I mean it's like it's it's a need for control it's a need to be able to say okay this matches what I had wanted for it and that gets me to another thing that we have talked about before that I think is part of this discussion and that is somewhere along the line, somebody told me that creating art is more like a conversation than it is willing something into existence. That it's a process of almost growing something. You do something and then you have to be willing to stop and listen and perceive what the thing you're creating needs or wants. And thinking of it as more of an interaction or a dialogue than a you know, you putting your will into this thing and then having it become what you had envisioned, I think it kind of relieves you from that responsibility of having to match it exactly and control it and, you know, fit it to this expectation that you went in with, because it's never going to be that. Just like if you have a kid, you know, the kid's never going to be exactly what you expected. And that's both a terrifying thing and disappointing thing and a wonderful, amazing thing. Right, right, right. You know what I'm saying? So, um... I don't know. When I came upon, and I don't remember who taught me that, but when I came upon that idea, though, I remember feeling like, wow, that relieves me from some of this pressure I feel to try to live my life and learn skills so that I can match this thing in my head exactly. I don't know. I'm not sure if I'm articulating that very well. Absolutely. But the other thing about that is that, I was going to say something about having kids. 00:13:37.020 --> 00:13:37.900 Like parenting? 00:13:38.580 --> 00:14:53.320 Yeah. And you've talked about your books in a similar way of them being kind of like your children. It's like, you know, you never feel like it's completely done, the job, you know, and you always wonder, well, I could have done things slightly differently and maybe things would have turned out, you know, better or worse. You know, who knows? but at the end of the day, this thing is what it is. Right. You know, and it's got its own existence in the world and it's got its own relationship to you. And it's got its own relationship to the larger audience of people that see it. And yeah, to a certain degree you've got to let it go. And that's the thing though, is some people never can let it go. Like I always feel this need whenever I go to a house that I know I have a painting in that I've given a painting or made. I always have to go to that painting and just kind of check in on it. Yeah. Yeah. And just sit there with it for a little, like it's almost as if I don't even have to look at the painting. I just kind of want to be there with it for a little bit. Yeah. You know, it has this kind of presence and, and, Anyway, and I don't think that's narcissistic. I think there is something to just like having a kid. It's this thing that you participated in. 00:14:53.320 --> 00:15:25.800 Yeah, you spent a lot of time. Yeah, poured yourself into. I got shivers kind of thinking about how we have... I know I've thought this before, but that concept of we have our relation to it, but then... other people have their own equal relationship to it as well, which is just so, you know, it's amazing to think about. Like there are going to be people who are so influenced and affected by each of your children, and they're going to have effects on their lives, other people's lives too. 00:15:25.800 --> 00:16:20.140 Yeah, I think that it's a good metaphor. And I think you might have some habits or tendencies that are not healthy for your own artwork. Just like when you're a parent, you know, maybe you have some bad, you know, instruction, bad programming from when you were raised or whatever, or things that you picked up along the way. And it's always helpful to have friends and family around you to look at what you're doing and say, you need to back off. Right? I don't know. Or editors in your case. There are people who you trust and mentors and people that surround you that care about you and care about your work and you feel like it really gets you. to come in every once in a while and recognize the patterns of your behavior. Because I'm thinking of, I'll just give a specific example. 00:16:22.200 --> 00:17:18.880 Laura has, you know, she'll come in when I'm painting or working on something. This has happened several times on commissions where there's that kind of like wanting to please the person you're making the painting for. Yeah, yeah. And she'll come in, she'll say, oh, it's done, it's great. And I'll be like, no, no, it's not quite right yet. Right. And then I end up overworking and it kind of gets stale, right? And she's seen that habit enough times and knows me well enough to be able to come in and say, it's done. And if you keep on going, you're going to ruin it. Right? Yeah. And if we get to that point, hopefully I've got the sense to pay attention to that. And, you know, at least take a night to sleep and come back to it with fresh eyes or turn it around for a couple of days and... you know, try to get some perspective. But I think that's another, you know, place where the metaphor of raising children and creating art can kind of. 00:17:19.580 --> 00:17:30.100 I was thinking about how, like the thing about perfect and good and perfect and great and it's funny to live like your parents are out of town. 00:17:31.220 --> 00:17:34.000 What does that look like? 00:17:34.240 --> 00:19:17.900 It just feels like, you know, there's no one that's going to be coming in and judging the situation right now, but there may be, that's not, you know, there may be someone that comes over, but I'm just sitting here the way I, it's like, could be a still life. It's so, chaotic and sort of haphazard, but it's just what's happening. And I just find myself in these, I don't know, I guess the whole thing of handmade life is just very apropos and appropriate for my life just i can't really so i guess appealing a perfect like there's times in my life when i've had you know fancier like where i live right now feels very modest but it's so sweet and cozy and wonderful other times i've spent a lot of time around i've paid a lot of I spend a lot of time, and I love decorating and making something really magical and wonderful, but I spend a lot of time just in that, a little more in that state than actually just kind of living through the space. Like, all right, this is whatever. This is good. I'm cozy. I'm comfortable. This is working. I'm not sure if I'm able to articulate this very well, but... maybe it's sort of like with you and with kids or, you know, the kids are all around, like there's a certain amount of maybe Laura's experience. Like there's toys everywhere. Like you sort of go, like, I'm kind of halfway moved into my studios. I've just kind of got piles in the living room and like everything's a little like, wow, this looks, if I was to leave this place and never come back, this would be an interesting place to come. 00:19:17.900 --> 00:19:20.560 into right now. 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:28.400 Well, can we say that? I don't know if we've mentioned that. You just moved into a new studio space, right? 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:32.320 Yes, I moved into a new studio space. I'm in the process of moving into it. 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:34.220 That is really exciting. 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:44.100 Really great. I'm renting it through July, and then I can either take over the lease 00:19:44.100 --> 00:19:46.100 or I can... 00:19:46.100 --> 00:20:54.200 Excuse me, or I could rent somewhere else, but I love it. It's right downtown. It's a block from the Capitol, and it has a cafe downstairs and great restaurants and beautiful southern light. And I'm so grateful. That's awesome. A wonderful, wonderful woman. Yeah, a wonderful woman reached out to me about... She's a photographer and she's just not, you know, she's not a studio within a studio. So my intern, Megan, and I are just kicking serious butt and just great. We've been jerry-rigging our locations as we go. it's just been fun working with her because she came into the internship, having no, nothing, knowing nothing about my work and applying to the university, focusing on consumers experience. So I've been studying happiness, consumers, consumer happiness. And, um, So she's coming in from the technology side and the consumer sort of study side. So she's really, really, really interested in what we're doing. 00:20:54.720 --> 00:21:32.820 Well, I'm excited for you. I love the new spaces. It's always, I don't know, it's always exciting. I've been, I think I sent you some pictures of this place. The little sketches that I've been doing. Yeah, they're more than sketches. Pretty cool, right? Yeah. Talk about them. Well, I started with just a big sheet of paper, and I dumped a bunch of black resin on it and and dripped it around and mushed it around a little bit. And then I cut that big sheet of paper up into smaller pieces of paper, about five by seven. 00:21:33.540 --> 00:21:34.040 Okay. 00:21:34.200 --> 00:23:17.980 And it's like watercolor cold press, you know, some thicker, thicker paper. And then I started painting on them with acrylic and ink and, and, um, paint pens. And then, and they were just these kind of abstractions. And then I started lasering, engraving into them these patterns. So there's an iPad app that will essentially just repeat what you're drawing, So I took this iPad app and did little scribbles that turned into these pretty awesome patterns. And then I engraved those patterns onto these drawings. And the cool thing is that when you engrave it, the laser will just take off like, you know, like half a millimeter of material. So it starts to reveal the previous layers, you know. Anyway, I just was so delighted with how that was looking. What was the app? One app is called Symmetry Pad. S-Y-M-M-E-T-R-Y Pad. That's the one that I've been using. There's a couple others that are pretty good too. One's called Kaleido Paint and Kaleido Curve. But the Symmetry Pad app is the one that... that I've been messing around with. Anyway, super cool. It's really easy just to come up with these patterns and then just airdrop them to my laptop and then use Photoshop to engrave them. And it's pretty like a seamless process to get it done. 00:23:18.340 --> 00:23:22.800 And just for people who don't know, you're doing this as 3D engraving? 00:23:22.800 --> 00:23:53.360 Right, so it's laser engraving. Laser engraving. Right. And then, so then I'll go back with more layers of resin and sanding and paper and, you know. I've just been kind of trying to push the materials. It's really cool stuff. It is, it is. It's really cool. I love the kind of the geometric precision next to the really gushy. shiny, you know, resin. 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:57.160 What gave you the idea to just drop the black resin on? 00:23:58.060 --> 00:24:28.020 I actually think I just had a bunch of extra resin that I needed to do something with, and I decided to drip it all over this piece of paper. I didn't really know what I was going to do with it. And then the idea came to just cut it up into a bunch of small pieces. There's a lot of this stuff I'm just kind of trying not to think too much about it as I go, you know, just trying new things. Oh, we had one more, the other saying, the perfect. 00:24:28.280 --> 00:24:28.780 Oh. 00:24:28.900 --> 00:24:31.600 So we talked about the first one already, which was. 00:24:32.180 --> 00:24:33.140 Done versus perfect. 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:34.840 Done versus perfect. 00:24:35.300 --> 00:24:37.600 Now, good is the enemy of great. Right. 00:24:37.600 --> 00:24:47.460 To which I would again ask that that statement has a lot of assumptions built into it, you know, one that you know what greatness is. Right. 00:24:50.200 --> 00:25:45.740 Who's going to be the judge of that? And rarely is an artist like super stoked about what they do right off the bat, you know, like I think most of us have some pretty deep reservations. Maybe I'm maybe I'm misspeaking, but. you know it maybe yeah maybe that's just a personality thing too now that i think of it but who's who's deciding what what perfection is who's deciding what greatness is and and uh i don't know i just i think fundamentally that that statement while i appreciate its sentiment and understand it and can see how it applies in certain instances is I does not jive at all with my personality and what art does and means does for me and means to me. You know what I'm saying? Like it's just, I think, I think there's a certain personality that that would be a very fruitful way of approaching life, but it does not resonate with me at all. 00:25:46.300 --> 00:25:46.860 What do you think? 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:52.660 Okay. So my, the way I'm interpreting it is when I start thinking about good and I 00:25:52.660 --> 00:25:54.400 think great, right. 00:25:54.400 --> 00:26:00.680 So good, alright, I put a good amount of effort into it, and then great! 00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:03.600 I friggin' did it! 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:13.600 It went all the way! Like, it's a good trip, and then there's a great trip! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! 00:26:13.600 --> 00:26:15.940 so 00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:19.540 there's a good life but there's a great life 00:26:19.540 --> 00:26:26.880 I love it so Tony the Tiger yeah totally Tony the Tiger 00:26:26.880 --> 00:27:01.700 so it feels like Even, you know, a design is probably, you know, you could solve it like this or you could really, you know. I don't think it's about working harder. It's working smarter and being, to me, it feels like it's applied, you know, to think of the physically fit, you know, your capacity. If you're strong and healthy, what you can do. achieve, I mean, or overcome or, you know, push through versus a limp, unhealthy version of self. 00:27:06.100 --> 00:27:17.700 But so I think there's something when I when I hear those words, because I think that I think for me, the difference between great and perfect is very different. Perfect is something that is not 00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:50.900 or verb, sorry, the verb of action. So like, do I want to make a good course? No, I want to make a fricking great course. 00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:55.540 But do you want to make a perfect course? 00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.000 No, no, no. Nope. 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:05.880 So it seems like in your case, well, what you're saying, like great is the, that's the optimal, right? 00:28:06.100 --> 00:28:07.440 Yeah, exactly. 00:28:08.260 --> 00:28:10.580 And that's the desired outcome. It's not perfection. 00:28:11.260 --> 00:28:13.660 No, it's not interesting if it's perfect. 00:28:14.580 --> 00:28:15.680 Hey, there you go. 00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:17.680 Yeah. 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:28.860 So it sounds like both you and I would probably... not be altogether interested in perfection. 00:28:30.220 --> 00:28:30.720 No. 00:28:31.520 --> 00:28:45.200 And I think that's what, like the people that get held up, I think they can't do it because they don't have the perfect, like you're saying the perfect equipment or the perfect space or, um, you just do it anyway. 00:28:45.620 --> 00:28:54.480 I think we also live in a day in a time when my kids are home. I'm in the garage right now. Do you hear them? 00:28:54.980 --> 00:28:55.480 Yeah. 00:28:56.360 --> 00:29:01.540 Wild animals out there. Yep. Things are not going well for Laura right now. 00:29:02.280 --> 00:29:06.740 Oh, no. And maybe did you have something to say about parenting? Is it? 00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:08.220 Or... 00:29:08.200 --> 00:30:41.640 No, but I do have strong feelings about that, like waiting until the perfect scenario or circumstances. Yeah, right. And I think that probably also applies to the idea of a perfect situation. product, you know, like waiting till it's absolutely right before you show it to people or waiting until you've got the right skill level to be able to show to people or be a real artist or be, you know, whatever. All of this is just stuff and expectations that you've built up over a lifetime and don't really... have as much gravity and foundation that you're giving them. You know, there's just your own perception and thought. You can let go of that and just, you know, enjoy. Oh, and making a project. But I was going to say, this is what I was thinking about earlier, is that I think we live in a day and age when... life is moving so fast and it's so fragmented that, you know, I can imagine the time when artists had, you know, a lifestyle that could permit them to have more psychological space and more just distance and peace to be able to really pursue perfection. But I think most of us in this day and age, life is so fast paced and noisy that, that I don't know if it's just we're in a situation right now that's conducive to, you know, that mentality of seeking perfection. 00:30:41.800 --> 00:31:10.420 I don't know. Maybe it may be. And I don't think and I don't think people find comfort in perfection. Yeah, I don't I don't I'm not interested in, you know, we're drawn to things like reality television because it's reality, not versus something polished. I mean, it's all been. you know, change is not totally obviously real, but there's a sense that we want the, we want the documentary versus we want the behind the scenes. We want the how it was made, you know, thing. 00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:16.800 But there are, what, what would you say is a perfect, is there a perfect artwork or painting or. 00:31:17.360 --> 00:31:28.240 I think music there's perfection in music. There's like a, there's like a perfect, there's a few perfect. I think it's like you too. I'm like, Yeah, there's some pretty perfect songs out there. 00:31:28.920 --> 00:32:59.540 Well, I wonder if people have resonated with your books in a way that they would call them perfect. No, I'm serious. I'm serious. I think that's the thing is like, what is perfection? It serves a purpose and it resonates in a way that was maybe for a certain person, you know, what they needed in a moment, you know, so it was like the perfect and the missing piece that they needed or the key to some kind of progress that they had or to overcome some obstacle that they've been wanting for a long time, wanting to for a long time. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's like it's it's kind of it's such an elusive thing. So don't let these kind of notions and false expectations keep you from making and showing your work, right? That's kind of the important thing I'd say. There is a perfect painting, though. It's in Amsterdam. Vermeer's Milkmaid. The subject matter is, it's fine. Oh, yes. Milkmaid is lovely. But you look at this painting and just, it is just so well crafted. The way that each brush stroke, the colors, everything is so perfectly and intentionally placed. I mean, I saw that up close and it was just, I was like, oh. he did it. He made a perfect painting. 00:33:00.100 --> 00:33:02.960 I'm looking at it right now. The color balance. 00:33:03.980 --> 00:33:52.360 What you can appreciate, I guess from not getting up close to it is there's on the bread, those little, there's like little sesame seeds and there's actually a texture there that in the paint. There's like little raised areas. So with, with like with like Monet, you know, he just uses a ton of paint everywhere, right? There's not very much discrimination in, in how he's applying texture. Sometimes, sometimes it gets to be a bit much. Whereas in these, like there's the way he's actually using that surface and the quality of the paint, you know, the thickness of the paint, how it's applied, the direction of brush strokes, et cetera, et cetera. And, Like there's this depth. I don't know. There's just so many things about it that he just nailed it. 00:33:52.840 --> 00:34:12.260 Because I would think – it's cool. There's a link here that has the – it must be an extremely high-res version of it. It's a Wikipedia image. And so I'm looking at the sesame seeds. I'll send you the link to it, but it would be cool to put in the show notes for people that want to see it really, really up close. 00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:13.300 Yeah. 00:34:13.200 --> 00:34:22.840 extremely high resolution. Cool. But then I could think of a Rauschenberg and think, well, there's a certain Rauschenberg painting that I think is, you know, perfection. 00:34:23.520 --> 00:34:24.260 Yeah. Yeah. 00:34:26.180 --> 00:34:38.740 And I imagine both artists probably were not attempting... Maybe they were. Maybe they were attempting to make the perfect painting, but that probably wasn't top on their priority list. Mm-mm. 00:34:39.860 --> 00:34:40.800 Mm-mm. 00:35:02.900 --> 00:35:49.120 I'm excited to go back to, I decided to go on this quick whirlwind adventure to the West Coast. I haven't been back to Berkeley where I wrote Spilling Open in a decade. And even then I was there for like a day or two. So I'm going back. I just got myself an Airbnb by where I used to live and I'm going to see people, but I really, and I'm going to do Sam Lamott's Hello Human podcast. and I'm gonna also yeah anyway I've got this but I'm so excited to wander the streets where I used to live and go up into the hills in perspective where I would sit under the eucalyptus trees and roots and just so looking forward to that 00:35:49.120 --> 00:35:50.280 that's awesome 00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:55.020 great combo again covered a lot of ground a lot of ground 00:35:55.020 --> 00:36:12.140 join us next week I don't know What is it? Where we'll be talking more. Talking more. Do more talking. And now I think don't have a good week. 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:15.120 Have a great week! 00:36:17.220 --> 00:36:21.120 There you go. ♪ ♪