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Sabrina Ward HarrisonHello! It's Sabrina, and this is the introduction for Room in the Trees, episode four. Trent Reynolds and me myself Sabrina and we are talking about boundaries and just the complex elements of living in this day and age right now There's no answers. There's no protocol. There's no step-by-step. There's just the conversation, which I appreciate more than ever, that we all can be having with each other. I would love you all to listen to the poem I heard that my mom shared with me recently this week. that was on the Writer's Almanac with Garrison Keillor, which you should all subscribe to his wonderful, wonderful podcast. Writer'sAlmanac.org on NPR. And the poem is by the amazing and wonderful and forever Mary Oliver. And it's called Leaves and Blossoms Along the Way. I will include a link to the poem in the show notes.
Trenton ReynoldsCan we share, I just want to share that quote. The quote is from Anne Lamott, No is a complete sentence. No is a complete sentence. No is a complete sentence. Word. Our discussion, our topic today is about boundaries. Last week as we were preparing to launch the podcast and talking about issues related to the website and how we want to formulate that, the types of information we want to share, the type of access we want to give to the audience. these things started you you had this very strong reaction that surprised me a little because it wasn't uh it wasn't stuff that i had really considered or felt the need to consider um so we we talked about that a bit and what was what was the what was it in regards to uh well our communication with interact or interaction with an audience and needing to create or define that relationship more because, and I'm going to let you discuss your experience with this in the past. you haven't had the boundaries that you've ultimately realized you needed to create or sustain a relationship that you felt was healthy and generative and building. You ended up in having some experiences where you felt overwhelmed and drained and like you were giving more than you had to give. So, so I think appropriately you're being a little bit more cautious as we build this, you know, anticipating that we're going to be building a community and trying to reach out to more people, that you're being more cautious, cautious in setting boundaries from the start, which I think is very wise. And that's what I would like for this conversation to be a discussion of boundaries in relationship to what the conversation that we're trying to start here. So, I feel like I'm talking too much, but let me give a little bit. That was well said. Let me give a little bit more background, though, and where I want you to start. And that is, it struck me as I was, you know, preparing for this conversation and thinking about it. that from the very beginning, you wrote a book called Spilling Open, which is kind of your first foray into a public space where you became known to a larger sphere, people that weren't necessarily in your immediate surroundings, and you became a larger identity. that book itself, like the whole idea, it felt like, or behind that book was not having boundaries. You were spilling open. You're letting it all out.
Um,
Trenton Reynoldsright. Is that, is that an accurate description?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt sounds so intense. Like you're just letting it all. dude, it was,
Trenton Reynoldsit tell me, tell me the truth. It was intense, right? That is an intense thing to do, right? You, It was. It was intensely personal. It was in depth. It put you in a very vulnerable position, which ultimately is boundaryless. That's what vulnerability is, is that there's no protections. There's no...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonSo I chose it as this beautiful medium of going into a bookstore and opening a book and feeling like you had a reflection of possibly feeling a little less alone. It was particularly chosen in that format. Right, right, right.
I...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI never imagined it as a digital element ever. I thought about it literally as truly as an object that you had to find in a bookstore. And that's as far as I knew about. I had no, couldn't fathom. My only reference was like Anise Nin's journals. You know, I had no, I just knew for me, I needed to find something, you know, we read to know we're less alone. And I want to make that kind of book that was visually interesting. kind of drew me in and engaging.
Trenton ReynoldsSo in that case, there were boundaries inherent in the format, in the distribution, right, in the book. That's right. You didn't have the internet. You didn't have all the social media. You didn't have smartphones that could connect you to your audience 24 hours a day, seven days a week, right? So there was a built-in boundary that over the course of the past few years has dissolved and left you in a very different position in relationship to others. Is that a fair characterization?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, I wouldn't say the past even few years. I would say the past decade for sure. The other thing about that too is so... It was public, I purposely chose kind of a, not that I had the, you know, I didn't have the access to a huge publishing company, but I was really happy with choosing kind of a mid-sized publishing company that had never even, they'd never even done a color book before. And I didn't even ask till about halfway through if the book was going to be able to be in color. I just was like... thinking well it could be on newsprint i don't care i just let me ask you this though that it
Trenton Reynoldswas picked up by let me ask you this though there are there are boundaries uh built into that format built into that kind of distribution but the book itself let's get back to the book itself it represented no boundaries would you say that's the case Let me ask you as a question. Were you considering or thinking about boundaries when you wrote the book? Did that kind of register at all, the thoughts of setting limitations and setting parameters for what you were trying to accomplish or who you were, the person you were trying to create or what you were trying to create? communicate. Not at that age. Not even a little bit. I feel like it was very much the opposite. And I think to a certain degree, as we grow older, we recognize the need of and the beauty and the value of boundaries, that they're not to be feared. They're not to necessarily be demonized. But in fact, they can they can help us be more creative anyway yeah so makes me think about parenting i'm sure for you like that's so important for sure for sure for both parents and children you know it's like children they have an app they need it like they they long for it if they're not given boundaries they they just flip out you know they They need that definition. So anyway, so I felt like that was significant to point that out in a discussion about creating boundaries now that you started your journey in having a conversation with a larger audience. You started that in a very vulnerable, boundary-less expression or kind of expression.
Sabrina Ward Harrisonbut also really at the time, really, really freaking exciting. I mean, because I was studying design and photography, the chance to just, you know, I love design. I love creating, you know, I, the pages, I, I was, it was the most thrilling thing and not a self-conscious feeling. It was like, I get to make a book that's like truly exactly how I want to be. And that felt, um, It didn't feel vulnerable. There were moments, but the purity of the opportunity didn't come with this barrage of social anxiety, of anxiety. hugely different atmosphere at that time.
Trenton ReynoldsSo let's talk about some of the things that followed after that time period. We can talk a little bit maybe about your workshops, about your... What else? Was there book signings? What are there...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonThere were totally book signings. Interesting fact, living in Madison, my first... So I went on a very small book tour for Spilling Open the first time, and I came to Madison, Wisconsin. I think it was one of my very first book signings, and it was at Canterbury. I think it was called Canterbury Books, and there was a little inn above it that had different bedrooms that had just after different themes of different writers, and I just loved it, and here I am. you know, 20 years later living in the city. I just passed that bookstore. But that was crazy too. I was so nervous and I would do all these kind of like breathing and, you know, trying to center. It's a, I remember this wonderful Frederick Buechner quote that said, God calls you to the place where your deep longing and the world's deep hunger meet.
Trenton ReynoldsI think that definitely describes what happened and has continued to happen with your books. You know, there was an appetite for that message. And you obviously were the one that needed to deliver it. But as you have found, though, that along with being the deliverer of that message came other things and other roles were handed to you that you hadn't anticipated, that were not what you had envisioned, that was not your expectation of what the relationship would be or what you would become. And all of a sudden, here you are with... you know, with people coming to you and assuming that you're this thing that you don't feel you are. Is that accurate?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI wouldn't say, yeah, I see what you're saying. I think it's that... And I think a lot of people must wrestle with this in their own lives, I'm sure. You know, as a parent, as, well, as just that, you know, let me just think about how I'm say this, just that I am a very, very right-brained personality. I'm left-handed. I am not someone who, I'm not very good at juggling lots of things. My dad always said, "Your greatest strength is also your greatest weakness." That's what I've always appreciated about collaborating or having... I've had some really fantastic and funny and brilliant interns. And they've become like, if I was to get married, they would all be my bridesmaids. Because they saw... known and seen and we kind of tackled things together but basically I haven't had a co-worker because I'm like I'm definitely someone who likes an inside joke you know has a I'm pretty funny wouldn't you say I'm pretty you know kind of funny yeah you are you're like the closest co-worker I have right now you know there's like a short hand of and that's something I never planned on I never thought my life would not have that in it. And so the feeling of maintaining or helping, you're just constantly, I felt this feeling like I constantly wasn't doing enough or acknowledging or validating other people's feelings. And I thought, yeah. And I just wrestled with how to, like what my job was, what is my job? Exactly. What's my job?
Trenton ReynoldsAlong those lines, can I share some of my experience as a... Yes. So I'm a teacher, a teacher at Santa Monica College, and I've taught art at other schools as well, and the experience has been the same, that I go into teaching and I love teaching. I love that relationship. I love the conversations that we have in class. I love seeing people get it, you know, like connect with the work that they need to make, what they have to say, and... So I love it. I love that role. But inevitably, there are students who will send me an email, simple question, right, about something in class or asking my opinion on something. And it's happened several times where I'll respond to, and I will hurt their feelings in some way or not respond in the way that they had thought or not respond to the right question. And then what ensues is this, you know, multi-email, many-hour exchange, right? Which, you know, because, I mean, like you, I like to help people. I like to feel like I'm giving my all, you know? But I don't have time to do that. I literally don't have time to devote that, what I feel is the needed time and energy to make that conversation, to do it right. So I would get into these, develop these really unhealthy relationships with students. And I also teach older students, so it's happened a couple times where they're older than I am. You know, I consider them age-wise their peers. They've had, I learn from them. I enjoy them. I consider them friends. But all of a sudden I'm in this relationship where if I don't email them back immediately, they're like, you know, why didn't you respond to my email, you know? And when the basis of our relationship is that I'm their teacher, you know, and that's ultimately what my role is in their life. But all of a sudden, you know, just because of the nature of people and communication, like I am finding myself having to give more and more and more. And when that happens, you know, like two or three of those people and you're maxed out, like you cannot give them what they need and be that person that they need you to be. Yeah. because you just literally don't have the time and energy and you have other responsibilities that need to take priority so you end up hurting feelings which is hugely distressing for somebody who wants to help people right so not only are you not able to meet their needs you're damaging them like there's this anxiety that comes with that right And so it feels like an impossible situation, you know, when ultimately what you had envisioned was being able to help people. So that's where boundaries come in, right? Anyway, go ahead and I feel like that there's a similarity. There's a similarity in that experience that I have in probably most people. And you just have that to a much more dramatic scale. scale, right? So I'm sure you get people writing you pages and pages of life experience, feeling like they know you, feeling like you would be the best friends if you guys only knew each other, you know, wanting to connect with you, but you just cannot be that person for them.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBecause exactly, and the weird part of it, so strange is that... Well, first of all, I'm definitely like a, I don't know about you, but I'm not like, in high school, because people know, Trenton and I went to high school, we went to high school together. And that's kind of where you first see kind of your social patterns of how you kind of work in the world. Other people are like, they like being a part of a circle of friends, like a whole group of friends sitting in a big group. Or I was always a one-on-one. I had my best friend. We had our funny jokes. And maybe I had three or four fantastic friends that you just solid for years.
And...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonSo the idea being sort of like there was never a feeling like, oh, I want to be popular or And you can see it probably as a parent for you. You see your children, they're who they are. They're just becoming who they are, but they're not, can't make them anything other than who they are. So, the idea of sort of being popular, juggling, and you want to be authentic, so you can't, I wouldn't feel comfortable giving some standard auto-reply answer, like, "Thanks, I'm so glad you feel you relate to that. Have a great day." Signs.
Trenton ReynoldsCut and paste response number two, right?
yeah no
Sabrina Ward Harrisonso you overthink and overthink and then you end up sharing and then you end up not feeling like you've given enough and then you're like oh really I think the frustration in and I think it's learning about the responsibility of like that's where boundaries come in because you have to own those boundaries for yourself because you can end up being driven around the wall where you've spent so much time trying to like you just said, just give the right response. It's never enough. And then you just feel so frustrated and so disheartened and just so deflated. I think that's where boundaries for me, I get a few times. I just, when I lived on the central coast,
um,
Sabrina Ward Harrisonwhich I think what my time in Italy and then my time in the central coast of California in the Redwoods and they didn't have any style for interception and I think I did the best work I ever did I felt when I think of my life and I think about the times that just elevated me creatively and I the strongest points in my life were when I just dropped it. I just dropped that... I don't know. I don't want to say ball and chain, but...
Trenton Reynoldsyou dropped that burden. You dropped the burden of... Yeah, I did. Of being that person for all those people.
You know?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBecause the best work comes out of dropping. You just cannot do... You can have both. I don't see how people can do both. I think your work is compromised. People can totally disagree with that because other people, and I think the people that make the millions are people that aren't intensely, not, I don't wanna say, intensely, but they happen to have the skills that are a little bit more balanced or organized and they're...
Trenton ReynoldsMaybe they have energy. They just have boundless, you know, don't need to sleep at night. Well, different kinds of energy, like...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI have energy, but it's more about plowing through a field of... Not plowing, but walking, plowing in a walking, plowing way. Through a field of artichokes to the ocean.
That's...
Trenton ReynoldsI'm not kidding. No, I know you're not, but I'm just envisioning you plowing through a field of art at shows. Do the ocean.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonShout out to Taylor Mertz and Emily.
Trenton ReynoldsIs that a lyric to a song?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonNo, they just were interns at the time, and Jen, they'll all know what I'm talking about.
Okay.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, right. But doesn't that sound really, that sounds way more energizing than being able to email 45 people back.
Trenton ReynoldsWell, let's say this, though. Even if you were able to employ a bunch of people to then become your minions to be able to answer all those emails, you don't want that. You don't want to have this empire of people responding for you. That kind of defeats the purpose, and it's not authentic.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonNo, and those people didn't do that. I mean, maybe they did a few, but basically they were top-down... driving down the ocean I mean I love to do a conversation with people like they were not they were not in any sort of office they were on the freaking journey yeah absolutely and they're the people that are in like when I chuckle and I need to do that again like shoot the little videos with my phone camera
Trenton ReynoldsSo I can see somebody listening to this say, well, I mean, with that big of an audience, you certainly could afford to start building infrastructure to be able to deal with, you know, and communicate with it. I know. Well, no, no, no. But that's beside the point. You didn't want to. It wasn't who you are. Whether you could have or you couldn't, you didn't, right? Right. And you didn't ultimately, maybe you didn't want to, maybe it wasn't the right fit or it wasn't the right time or you didn't have the experience or skillset to get that done. Whatever the case may be, it's just, it wasn't meant to be. So anyway, so, but let me add another layer of complexity to the conversation, if I can. We're already pretty deep into it, but I feel like this is relevant too, though, is we've had lots of conversations about the idea of creating a tribe, right? And I know this is something that's important to you is connecting to like, like people and creating a sense of community and group. So what you're not saying, you're not saying that you wish all these people would go away and leave you alone. That's not what you're saying, right? No, not at all. And for me, I'm not saying that I don't want to have sincere, authentic connections with students in class and engage with them in a very, you know, personal way. I'm not saying that. Right. So what we're saying is that you just want a different definition or you need to define that relationship a little bit more clearly because as it is right now, or not right now, but you know what I'm saying, like as if left undefined, that it tends to go to this place that you is not you and is unmanageable. And doesn't help anybody. Exactly. It's not only not you, but it's counterproductive and perhaps even damaging.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBecause it's not empowering. I remember when I created, and I'll talk about this later, but True Living Project, when I was on along the Central Coast, I kind of began this idea of the True Living Project made by, for, and with.
But the idea that...
Sabrina Ward Harrisonthat's the most thrilling idea for me is the feeling of we can make this for each other with each other and maybe that's what this is an exciting way for a podcast to be yeah a forum to a calling forth like let's do it so
Trenton ReynoldsSo let's talk about, we probably should wrap up pretty soon, but let's talk about this podcast a little bit more. So there is that duality there of, at the same time, wanting to connect to a larger audience, but also wanting to maintain... your own space, you know, that a private domain, an intimacy, and sometimes those two things kind of battle each other a little, right? So it's a, that's where, I don't know, that's where boundaries, boundaries need to come into play.
Sabrina Ward Harrisonwhat do they look like for you? What, what feels like a, what'd be the, when you picture this, maybe we need to like brainstorm and other people. I really want to say to other people, you listening, let's talk about this in your life.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward Harrisonand I get that frustration with social media because I'm like, it's not going to be this way forever. It's going to be different, and we cannot take it so seriously. We've got to get on with our making, get on with our doing, get on with our, you know, we're living human beings, and it does not help to be on your phone uploading stuff during the day when you can be... building, making, connecting in person.
Trenton ReynoldsAnd I hope that that's a conversation that can happen on the website. And as I envision this podcast, I didn't envision it as just conversations, you know, audio conversations that are published and people subscribe to and listen to each week. But I hope that there is also an online component or a website component where You know, more images can be shared. Not like where community can be created, you know? Yeah. But what does that look like? You know, that's... How do you keep that... manageable, how do you keep that, again, how do you define, put limits on that, or define the relationship, so that it's healthy, and it's not, a burden, but it's something that's, uplifting, you know, it,
it,
Sabrina Ward HarrisonThat's where I think there's a question about taking, like for me, I want to do projects. I just want to take my, I think I've just had too much stuff about my name. And I'm a great, I think I'm a good leader as far as like a fort builder. Hashtag t-shirt.
Trenton ReynoldsThat's one of my favorites right there.
But I think the feeling of
Sabrina Ward Harrisonthere are people that love
this.
Sabrina Ward Harrisoncreating, you know, different... I mean, people may feel like they're building a fort when they're building a whole infrastructure of a way people can all communicate together.
Trenton ReynoldsWell, let me say this. Let me say this. I feel like at the moment... what this is, how I see it, is that right now, for these past, well, obviously for the past four episodes or whatever, all this is is a conversation between you and I that we're sharing with other people. That's it. Like, that's the relationship. What we're not doing is we're not promising to upload videos you know, tons of pictures and videos to you and start comments and conversations and threads and like, we're not doing all that crap because we, that's not what we want to do. It's not what is, we don't have time to do that, but that doesn't mean that we don't love whoever it is that is listening to this. And that doesn't mean that we don't want to connect with people. It just means that we don't have time to do that right now, right? Absolutely.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd the thing of it is, is that this for everyone other that feels that feeling to their work, the annoying thing is, is probably like eight months from now, there's going to be something that comes to the world.
Trenton ReynoldsIt's like, oh, everyone agrees that you don't have to do that.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYou just spent three years stressing out for so long. Like there's going to be something that goes this because it's not sustainable at all.
Trenton ReynoldsSo, to further define this, if I may, we will have a contact form on the website. If you want to get in touch or leave a response or whatever, we invite that, but we would ask you to keep it brief. Okay.
Is that...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd suggest if anyone has some ideas about different ways to make different kind of... Because I would like something like... How would you... I know. Thinking about like how would you like to... not collaborate or any idea, any feedback about boundaries.
Trenton ReynoldsYeah, I think that's, that's excellent. I also think that, you know, doing just a simple hashtag on, on Instagram, if you were to hashtag room in the trees, um, You know, that's like little images that you can consume very quickly. And, you know, that sounds great. What feels daunting to me is if we were to open up comments on the webpage and all of a sudden we've got hundreds of people saying good things and nasty things and responding to each other in good ways and nasty ways. And I don't want to... can't do that. So we have, we have a way for you to connect with us and we invite your participation and, and would love to hear what you have to say. Um, but realize that we're, we're looking for the right balance. We're looking for the right boundaries, um, And if we don't respond to you in exactly the way that you want or feel like you need, then...
Sabrina Ward Harrisonfrom your device and know we just you being and listening makes it known that you should be outside well know that listening to this outside like listen to it i would be recording this outside but i'm trying to do the right sound work for i appreciate that because that does make me it's hard to stay inside with these windows yes you're doing a really good job
Trenton ReynoldsSo know that, well, it also requires faith on the listener's part. Faith to know that we don't want your feelings to be hurt. We want the best for you, and we generally do care about you and love you. But we need to draw lines and set boundaries, too. Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd know that we appreciate them without them having to leave and leave anything. Yeah. That like them...
Trenton ReynoldsYou listening is wonderful.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI would love to just do a hashtag where they're #RoomoftheTrees. maybe Room in the Trees Exploring, and that would be a great way for people to show that they've listened to it and they're out exploring or making.
Trenton ReynoldsThere, that's a fantastic idea. Like, hashtag Room in the Trees. I just keep it hashtag Room in the Trees. I think that's enough. Okay, that's good. And we can embed other pictures that people hashtag on the website and share that, or there's any number of ways that we can use that as a way to connect and share. And I think that's simple and it, it incentivizes people to go out and do stuff, which is what we're, what we're about. What did you find this week?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI found the missing piece of the puzzle.
Okay. Literally.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI was walking yesterday and I found a tiny piece of a puzzle and
Trenton Reynoldsoh i love that story done and done that's the story right there
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI post on Instagram so that concludes
Trenton Reynoldsthat concludes the follow up
Sabrina Ward Harrisonyep and uh
Trenton ReynoldsThanks for joining us. This is a discussion I'm sure will continue. Our conversation here brought a lot of questions to my mind, and I'm looking forward to more discussion with Sabrina about her experiences publishing, teaching, and traveling. Send me a note through the website if you have any questions. or any questions you'd like me to ask, or a subject you'd be interested to hear more about. You can also hashtag your Instagram posts with #roominthetrees or message us there. We would love to see a bit of your life and what you're creating. If you are enjoying Room in the Trees, please consider supporting us at patreon.com/room and by sharing this podcast with your friends. The website is roominthetrees.com where you can find show notes and much, much more. Music for this episode was provided by my brother Brent. You should check out his music on SoundCloud. His username is ventersstagmotel. Next week is the episode you've been waiting for. It is the favorite song episode.
See you then. ♪ ♪