WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:38.500 ♪ This is Room in the Trees, a podcast about the nature of who you are, courage and perspective. That's what I think it's about today. The following was recorded on October 28, 2016. This is episode 26, The Wisdom of Insecurity, a conversation with Chris Johnson. Room in the Trees is hosted by Trent Reynolds and me, Sabrina Harrison. Show notes including pictures, links, video and more for every episode can be found at roominthetrees.com and if you like this podcast please consider showing your support you can become a subscribing patron at patreon.com forward slash room and you could rate us or write a review on itunes that link is at roominthetrees.com forward slash itunes Now to have the conversation. When we created Room in the Trees, this was the person who I really wanted to have a conversation with again. Chris Johnson was my photography teacher my first year in art school. He continued to be a mentor to me as I wrote "Spilling Open." So I was really kind of excited and nervous about this conversation because it just really meant a lot to me. I admire him so very much and deeply treasure his teaching and guidance and real permission he gave me to follow my own path. So I have deep, deep gratitude for him. 00:01:38.500 --> 00:02:05.940 Well, okay, so it kind of begins with me as a nude model at an Ansel Adams workshop in Yosemite. And in fact, if you know the famous photograph of... of imaging and Twinka that Judy data took and Yosemite. Okay. So if you imagine, um, Twinka looking up, 00:02:06.080 --> 00:02:08.040 she would have seen me standing. 00:02:08.040 --> 00:02:11.700 I think naked. I'm not sure. Um, not too far. 00:02:11.820 --> 00:02:12.340 Cause, 00:02:12.540 --> 00:02:46.380 cause I had done watching, watching Judy do this, um, you know, what became a classic photograph. Um, but what happened was, um, I mean, I, I was born in Brooklyn and dead sty and, um, grew up to become a very bad folk singer. And, um, um, moved to California when I was 17 going on 18 and discovered photography, um, and quickly tried to get involved with, um, what was an emerging photo community at that point. 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:48.800 And, um, yeah, 00:02:48.800 --> 00:03:20.400 was very lucky to make friends with Imogen Cunningham and then like a lot of people my age I went to Yosemite workshops to study with Ansel and was so inspired and just kept going and then finally they hired me to be an assistant and then this particular summer they didn't have a slot for an assistant so they said well do you mind modeling nude I said well no that's that'll be fine How old were you at that time? 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:22.400 Oh, gosh. 00:03:22.400 --> 00:04:59.300 Probably 22, something, somewhere around that, 21, 22. And I actually had pneumonia. But my girlfriend at the time dropped me off at the clinic in Yosemite. They gave me a big shot of penicillin so I was ready to go for the workshop. But on previous workshops, I had learned the zone system from Ansel Adams. And so before coming to this particular workshop, I've been teaching zone system workshops to individuals just sort of freelance workshops. But at this workshop, there was another teacher, his name was Eiko Hosoya, who became a really, who still is, a really well-known Japanese photographer. And he sort of was fascinated by me as a model at this workshop. And so after the workshop, he wrote to me and said, "Would I be willing to come to Japan to work with Jack Walpott and Judy Dator as one of their models. And I said, sure, you know, he's going to pay my way. So my girlfriend and I, you know, flew to Japan and participated in the workshop and And, but one of the things that Aiko didn't tell Jack Welpott was that he wanted the zone system taught at this workshop as well. And this is at the Tokyo Polytechnical School that had a photography program. And so, so Jack had to try to ad lib teaching the zone system. 00:04:59.820 --> 00:05:04.500 Can you explain for people listening what the zone system is just briefly? Sure. 00:05:04.500 --> 00:07:15.080 Sure. Yeah, the zone system is a very precise method of pre-visualizing a photograph and translating what you see directly through this symbolic method of photographic seeing into a method of exposure and development, which a lot of people consider to be highly complex and very technical, but I was able to learn it, which shows you that it can't be too technical. So, and I started teaching it. And so, so Jack, so there we are at the workshop and Jack is explaining the zone system to me these students and he got stuck on a technical question that one of the students asked him. And of course I'm sitting there with no pressure at all and I just pulled out a piece of paper and worked out the answer and very humbly raised my hand and I said, "Jack, you know, I think I can explain that." And he was very happy to have me stand in for him. So I stood up and started explaining this particular thing and the students said, well, why don't you just keep going? So that was my first experience through a translator teaching. And Jack after that said, you know, you really should consider a career in education because at that point I was working in a – photo lab as a black and white printer, a job that Imogen Cunningham had gotten for me. And so I said, well, Jack, you know, I only have a high school diploma. And he said, well, you know, there's this school called the California College of Arts and Crafts. And I've got a friend there who maybe would allow you to waive your undergraduate degree and let you directly into the graduate program. if you show a portfolio and have letters of recommendation. And so I said, okay, I'll try. So I did that. I met with a man named Bob Forth and showed him my portfolio. And after getting letters of recommendations from Jack Walpott and Judy and maybe even Ansel, they said, okay, we will waive your undergraduate degree and allow you into the graduate program. So then I had to figure out how to pay for it, you know. 00:07:15.760 --> 00:07:16.600 Yeah. Yeah. 00:07:16.600 --> 00:08:57.160 But I got a phone call two weeks after that that said, you know, we're really sorry we're having personnel problems and we are going to have to suspend our MFA program in photography. So I was back to where I started, I thought, until about two weeks later they said, you know, one way to solve this personnel problem might be to hire you. So I said, okay. So, I prepared a class in large format photography for them and started teaching as a guest lecturer. And, you know, I assumed, of course, that this was going to be my only opportunity to teach, so... I called Ansel and I said, you know, would it be okay to bring my students down to show them, you know, your studio and have you look at their work? And Ansel was a very generous guy. So on that workshop, we went down to Carmel and we went to Ansel's home and he looked at their work. and we went to Brett Weston's home, and he showed them his black painted pool. So I became a very popular teacher with that one class, as you can imagine. And they hired me again, and so now it'll be 40 years very soon that I've been teaching there. So that's... That's the story. And of course, when I became head of the program about four years or so later, I reinstated the MFA program and we ended up hiring Larry Sultan. And so, yeah, so that's a story. And then one day, Sabrina Ward Harrison walked into my class. So that's... 00:08:58.040 --> 00:09:05.800 And why don't you continue that story? I think I'd be curious to hear what first impressions were, how that began. 00:09:05.800 --> 00:09:50.640 Well, anyone who's met Sabrina can imagine first impressions. But as we began doing projects, it was real clear that this was an exceptionally talented young woman who had lots of experience. interdisciplinary influences that she brought to her work. I remember portraits that she was doing. But anyway, I was really impressed with, you know, with the quality of your work and the way you approached things from a kind of personal and spiritual, and you were very articulate about your inner world. And so, you know, in addition to the classes, you know, we started conversations. And those became as important to me as the work that you were doing. 00:09:51.060 --> 00:09:51.560 Yeah. 00:09:51.500 --> 00:09:56.620 And would these be conversations during class or outside of class? 00:09:57.520 --> 00:09:59.880 Outside of class, you know, around projects. 00:10:02.760 --> 00:10:14.100 Yeah, around projects or not. I mean, after you stopped being in the class, I remember we just continued talking because you were, you know, you were working towards what became Spilling Open. 00:10:14.360 --> 00:11:12.120 Yeah, I got Spilling Open started while I was in school. So I had done two years of school. So I'd taken... Photography 1 and then I was in Photography 2 and then my third year, the summer before my third year, I got, I had proposed, I made sampling pages and taken them to a publisher that summer and so I began, I began that fall. I got the... I got the chance to start making spilling open. So instead, so I went to this, I think it was, I remember talking to Liz Pointer, wonderful Liz Pointer, who's the Dean of Students, and saying, look, I have this opportunity, but I still want to be taking these classes or somehow be able to continue having mentorship. So I had a mentorship with you and then Opal Palmer Adiza. 00:11:12.940 --> 00:11:14.700 Oh, yeah. 00:11:14.700 --> 00:13:03.320 at the same time, so that happened, I think, for that next year. I was thinking about some of the projects that we had in class, and I wondered if you remember-- I don't know if you remember the one where we had to choose someone-- I think it was choosing someone that we didn't know, or maybe it was someone we did know, and document them and do a documentary project about them. And I chose this little girl named Elise who I'd met didn't really know her and I had I went and spent time with her and she was six I think and I went and spent time with she became the girl that's in the photo on the cover of spilling open and those so she I spent time with her she and her family in this in this part of Berkland South East what I don't know some part of Berkeley that I don't remember exactly where and then I had her write what she saw in the photographs of herself and that was a really the beginning of really being interested in the idea of people people, capturing something but then having them really talk and speak into what they saw in the images of themselves and what they saw in that moment. And then that went on, I remember when them being 19 and I did that project about 19 year olds, my, photographing the women in my life that were 19 and then having them write what they saw in the photographs of themselves. because people have been saying, "Oh, 19, so great." You know, and I thought at that time being 19, I thought there's a lot of complex feelings that people I know that are 19 are sure feeling and going through, so. 00:13:04.680 --> 00:13:31.500 - Chris, it can be difficult to describe or define exactly what it is about a student that that sets them apart or makes them different but do you remember or were there evidences in in her work or yeah could you describe the quality that jumped out at you or what was it about the work that that set her apart well um 00:13:31.500 --> 00:16:36.500 I think that the word insight gets used as a rubric to describe someone who certainly is paying attention to what you're saying and the way that you are moving through the world on the outside. there's a quality of experience that she's having that goes beneath the surface and those beneath the surface qualities and what they meant were coming through both in the photographs that she would take and in, in the way that she would render their impressions. And the fact that those inner impressions were as important to her as what she was able to capture with the camera, and that she had a very vivid and sincere and honest subtle and sensitive way of rendering both of those things just gave her work a quality of sophistication and meaning that was really clear. And so, you know, Being an art educator is really primarily about just giving permission. I realized very early on that there are certain technical and formal things you can impart. But what you're really doing is creating an environment where a person feels free enough to connect to her art is her own inner world, um, and give, um, free expression to what they're experiencing and then make the effort to try to, you know, convey that experience through their work to someone else. And that whole process of, you know, moving inside and, um, You know, trying to derive some sense of meaning from the mystery of experience and then translating that. I mean, all of those things are things that I think Sabrina does instinctively. And there's a lot to say about why that might be true, but there's no question. doubt that it is true. And, you know, it comes through in the way that she moves through the world and, you know, the way she dresses and, you know, the way she populates her world. And so all of those are things that you notice right away when you're sitting, you know, at the head of a looking at a range of different souls, you can just see it in her work. And so spilling open made perfect sense because, you know, that is what she, you know, instinctively needs to do and does it very beautifully. And so it wasn't surprising to me that publishers were sensitive to that as well. So the choices she was making about what to do, you know, as steps forward in her career made perfect sense to me. 00:16:36.500 --> 00:18:19.980 We talk a lot of, Trent and I talk, as both being teachers now, we said before, "Oh gosh, we just miss having a teacher." As you're talking, Chris, that longing for a mentorship and an educator and someone that challenges and gives you that permission and listens really closely. The power of that is huge, the role of an educator that way. And as you talk about permit, as you talk about permission, it's, you know, it's, it's kind of incredible to think about the subtleties of, of, if I hadn't had those conversations with you, I very well might have not written Spilling Open. You know, those were very clearly. feelings that years later people who, you know, people that time weren't, there wasn't really the internet with blogging or people weren't sharing those kind of feelings and I was sharing with you some of the things I was thinking about that that I really thought what the heck am I doing sharing this kind of these these sensitive you know insecurities and questions and longing and ache and I was going through a, I remember going through a breakup at that time And she kind of sharing that deep, deep sort of longing and sadness and ache of that. And I really commend you and will forever be such gratitude for that permission that you gave to me. and encouraged and um it's it's a testament to your character and and um your confidence as a 00:18:19.980 --> 00:19:39.100 teacher i think well thank you i mean it's great to hear um but you know listening to you sabrina um and and reflecting on what was happening um in both of our lives at that time. There's something to be said, you know, as we're talking about the process of creating safety within a classroom for free expression. But there's much more to say, I think, about what the driving forces are behind the content of, Why is there an urgency to find expression? What is it that's happening when an individual, for all kinds of reasons, needs to look inside and reflect back to herself and then reflect to the world? Like what kinds of uncertainties are being resolved just by seeing the marks that you make on a page or seeing reinterpretations the way you see the world? Like why do we need that kind of reassurance? It does come from a deep... position of uncertainty. 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:40.660 Yeah. 00:19:41.020 --> 00:19:42.620 People who are 00:19:42.620 --> 00:19:44.180 clear, 00:19:44.480 --> 00:20:05.000 you know, and dogmatic about their positions in the world can be solipsistic, you know, but people who are for all kinds of circumstantial reasons, uncertain or unstable, are looking for reassurance or some kind of clear reflection. And so, 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:05.660 you know, 00:20:05.300 --> 00:21:09.760 if you are reflective because of struggles that are happening, it's not hard to understand why it would be encouraging to have someone say, you know, I want to know who you are and what's going on. And not because, you know, I have anything to gain. It's just that I identify with the process of self-reflection and how that's healing just of itself. um yeah i mean people sing in the shower and that's reassuring you know to a certain extent that's that's a way of saying i have a voice but but when you're able to to uh to share that with someone and have someone say you know i care about about what you're saying um that's doubly reassuring and and i think you know that um it wasn't too long before you were seeing that the people around you were responding to the tentative marks you were making. And that's encouraging. That's encouraging. Yeah. 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:41.720 I was remembering the project you shared with us. at that time that I just will never forget it was so evocative and powerful for me it was you and maybe you can explain the project a little bit more but you and your when your process of separating and ending a marriage with your wife at that time. And didn't you do, you decided to document that together with photography, didn't you? 00:21:42.080 --> 00:26:02.340 Yeah, so a couple of things were happening. Are you talking about the Polaroid pictures that were self-portrait? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, those had happened earlier. And so I was able to show them as examples. But I'm sure they were especially poignant because they were in the past by the time I was going through the divorce. But what Sabrina's talking about is a... a body of work that I created while I was kind of a fellow to the Polaroid Foundation and so had access to lots of Polaroid instant film. And I'd been in this long-term relationship, and what had happened was I wanted to – somehow as directly as possible, um, get the experience of recognizing that these two people who, you know, loved each other were separating. I wanted that to, to appear on film. So how do you do that? You know, um, So, Anne was her name, and she was a studio photographer, so we had access to a studio. And I didn't know a lot at that point about studio lighting, but she was an artist, and so she appreciated and was willing to share this sort of creative experiment. So, what I did was... And again, there's a longer story that would be useful because I had done a project where I had taken pictures using Polaroid where there was a piece of black painted glass that kind of divided up the portrait. And that piece of black glass. created a blank space that I could put overlapping images into. And that worked very beautifully. So I thought that I would use the same technique with Anne. And so I laid down on a piece of black velvet and made a silhouette of myself, like Peter Pan's shadow, you know. and so the thought was that I would use that draped over her body and then do overlapping exposures but that turned out to be way too contrived and we went through lots of film and it just wasn't working and I realized so here I have this last opportunity to create this um you know, these impressions of a breakup. And it's being wasted because all these pictures are really just awkward. And so I remember going up on the roof of the studio and thinking, what's wrong? Why isn't it working? And I realized that I was being too aloof on the process. I wasn't committed enough. I wasn't taking enough of a risk. I was asking Ann... to be open and vulnerable and exposed, but I wasn't really present myself. So I went downstairs and I said, Anne, would you mind if I get into the pictures with you? Stand in for my own shadow. And she said, that was fine. And so what we did was I would initially pose her and then open the shutter, and then I would go in front of the camera with her so there was no one behind the camera. And we would just interact until the camera had accumulated enough exposure, and then it spit out the picture. And the first one of those was perfect and beautiful. So we realized we just needed to keep doing that. So we went through maybe 20 or 30 exposures and got out of that a dozen really remarkable pictures. So those are the ones that... that I was sharing with you at the class. But of course, as you can tell, in addition to the really striking images, there's an important story about the necessity of taking... necessary risks as an artist. In fact, I almost feel it acts as a kind of aesthetic compass. The direction to go when you're lost is the direction that feels most scary. For lots of reasons that have to do with the fact that experience itself is a mystery. 00:26:04.060 --> 00:26:05.700 And so... 00:26:05.700 --> 00:26:21.680 That, you know, work functions for me as evidence of, you know, the value of really taking a risk and being as direct and honest as you can be. So I think that's probably what I was trying to convey in sharing that work with the class. 00:26:22.840 --> 00:26:36.020 That's beautiful. That's true. Yeah. Oh, I miss you, Chris. You're so articulate with it. That's so true. Trenton, do you have any thoughts here? 00:26:37.220 --> 00:27:28.660 My mind is just reeling a little bit. I'm trying to process a lot of information. What I keep on going back to is you've got this epic story. And I think it speaks of a person who is able to... to go with the flow, to take opportunities when they arise and to be able to perceive and see opportunity. The fact that you would even consider this breakup as an opportunity to explore photography as a medium to communicate or convey something about this experience is, And then your experience with Ansel Loud and becoming a nude model when that was the opportunity that was presented and being able to go with that and then follow that into an experience teaching, my mind is kind of spinning. 00:27:30.520 --> 00:30:10.120 I guess what I mean, I mean, of course, you know, I feel really blessed and lucky. There's no question about that. And it's easy from that position to feel as if... when an opportunity presents itself, you know, what's required is, I guess, courage, you know, but there's this wonderful book that I'm sure I've shared with you, Sabrina, called The Wisdom of Insecurity by Alan Watts. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, in that book, he makes a point, very strong way, you know, how, um, the inherent instability of life, you know, provides opportunities for creative, um, freedom, um, assuming that freedom is possible. I mean, that's, there aren't too many philosophers who believe in, in free agency, but, um, but certainly there's, there's an internal experience, um, of opportunity and freedom when you're confronted with, um, with the pressure of growth. Um, and growth is always, um, somewhat of a traumatic process, you know? Um, and, um, and so you have to appreciate the value of that. Um, but, but again, I feel, I feel awkward expressing it that way because, um, um, Because it feels like you're approaching it from a place of strength, but actually, I think, Sabrina, you understand, and Trent as well, you're feeling insecure, you're feeling uncertain, you're feeling frightened. You're feeling pressured to either survive through expression or not. So it isn't as if you're celebrating some kind of heroic accomplishment. It's like you're scrambling to try to invest meaning in experiences that feel chaotic around you. And, you know, and a mirror does that, you know, at the very least, you know, what a mirror does is say, yes, you are present. And so the opportunity you have to reflect the marks you can make back to yourself are reassuring. And like I said, if you have faith in those marks and other people respond as well, that's just amazing. that builds a kind of momentum that I think propels lots of artists in the directions that are most true. 00:30:12.140 --> 00:31:03.100 You know what I'm saying? I guess I'm trying to say that I'm sitting here now, you know, feeling vulnerable, not feeling heroic. I mean, not that I don't appreciate, you know, the opportunities and the blessings, but I, you know, in the existential sense, it's more fear and uncertainty that I'm most immediately aware of. Like in that project with Anne, what I knew was that I was witnessing the end of a love relationship. And that, you know, that doesn't feel good. you know But if you feel through the work that some meaning is emerging, that feels like a gift. 00:31:03.100 --> 00:32:03.760 Well, what feels remarkable to me about it is that in that insecurity, in that place of chaos, somehow you were able to have the presence of mind and the stability to be able to be an observer there, to be able to recognize and interpret. And I think most people in those situations are responding to that feeling of insecurity and not really understanding. I think it takes a lot of strength and perspective to be able to just exist in that insecurity and not totally just freak out and want to find a place where you're not insecure. Yeah, you're right. That's something that Sabrina, I think, is also... really good at, and that is to exist in that place that is insecure and vulnerable and open, and be able to use that as a creative force rather than just run screaming, you know, or respond to 00:32:03.760 --> 00:32:36.440 that initial flight impulse. Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. And again, you know, it doesn't take too much time in Sabrina's presence to see that dichotomy that you're describing. Are you seeing profound, insightful, sensitive strength, or are you seeing vulnerability and uncertainty? And the answer is you're seeing both at the same time in some holographic way. 00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:37.420 Right. 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:52.400 Right. Something that I've referred to in a previous conversation is this chapter from The Unbearable Lightness of Being. And he talks about how when two extremes occupy the same space, it creates this feeling of disorientation. 00:32:53.220 --> 00:33:34.400 It's kind of like a spark. It's igniting sometimes, too. It's the power of those juxtaposer rubbing up against each other. And I think it's interesting, our dynamic as friends and kind of working, doing this project together are very, you know, your natural place is to come to a place of evenness and steadiness and calm, right? And I just can't exist there. I just can't. And I've always wanted to. I've really always wanted to. 00:33:38.360 --> 00:34:15.400 And so it's interesting how all of the ways we're created as individuals, you know, you ultimately can't ultimately be anything but who you are. And You know, thinking back on, reflecting back so many years ago, I mean, I feel I'm just still the same. And I think of all the feelings I've felt since then. I'm like thinking, I was feeling a lot of things then, and I continue to feel a lot of things every single day for the past 19 years. Yeah. 00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:24.940 You know, but from that, you know, you are able to generate, you're able to create things that that are really powerful. 00:34:25.680 --> 00:35:59.680 And you know that. I mean, there's I mean, the point that Trent is making is that there has to be a grounding of confidence, you know, as well as the instincts and talents. I mean, those things have to be there. They may not be evident to you as conscious experiences at the moment, but they're available to see for other people. As you walk through the room, people... people can tell just intuitively, you know, that this is a person who has possession of some qualities of herself that make it possible to be as creative and as creative generous as you are. It's just that those things aren't necessarily available to you. I know the same is true for me. And, you know, there's a lot of Buddhist wisdom behind what happens when you're able somehow, you know, to just let who you are be without a lot of the layers of control we try to impose on the nature of who we are. 00:36:00.540 --> 00:36:01.040 Yeah. 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:07.520 Chris, it sounds like you were able to do that from a fairly early age. Do you have anything that you attribute that to? 00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:09.260 No. 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:18.040 Are there influences in your life that helped you get there or kind of the foundation that you were standing on? 00:36:19.980 --> 00:37:40.000 Well, I mean, I guess I would say, you know, some of it. Clearly is genetic. I have an inheritance from my family. That's one of the things that you can't see and it's so easy to take for granted. I also, as much as I, in many periods of my life, characterized my upbringing as being troubled and focused on trauma, I clearly had parents who loved me and cared for me and created opportunities for me to grow. But the thing that I'm aware of was an instinctive opposition that I had to conditions around me that... you know, that created a necessity for me to leave. You know, I mean, I was in Brooklyn, surrounded by, you know, the sort of opposing forces of the civil rights movement on the one hand at that age, because, you know, I'm going to be 68 in a couple of weeks. And so at the time when I was 14... 00:38:01.700 --> 00:39:26.560 sort of everyday parts of my life, but I was also surrounded by a movement that was emerging on the one hand to try to find, um, pathways to human freedom and just, um, and on the other hand, um, you know, the counterculture, you know, um, as I mentioned, I was, you know, I was really drawn for lots of reasons to, um, to folk singing and, um, and the truths that were being expressed through music. And so my heroes were Bob Dylan and Pete Seeger and Joan Baez and Glenn Chandler. And so I not only had negative forces that were propelling me away from music, you know, inner city Brooklyn, but I had positive forces that I could aspire to. And, um, you know, as a young person, you're, you know, you're influenced by those, those forces very much. And, uh, you know, I had a, I had a sense that there was a place to go where there were people with flowers in their hair, you know? So as soon as I was able to, I, um, My girlfriend and I got on a train and landed in Oakland and then eventually San Francisco. So yeah, I'm very much a product of that time. 00:39:26.560 --> 00:39:29.000 So you're still teaching now. What's the latest? 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:43.000 At the moment, I've been married for three years and eight days, which is really exciting to be in a Bible revelation. And you know about Question Bridge and what's happened with that. 00:39:44.240 --> 00:39:46.480 Could you tell us a little bit about what that is? 00:39:46.960 --> 00:41:23.600 Well, that was a project that actually kind of began, I'm not sure if you even remember. I remember. Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah, yeah. Trent doesn't know about it. Yeah, it was 96 when I created this experiment in trying to build a bridge using the act of asking and then answering questions in San Diego. Well, that has emerged into a project. through my collaboration with Hank Wallace Thomas, who was a graduate student. He saw that original version that I created in 1996 and invited me to use a version of that with him using black males as the focus. And so Question Bridge Black Males has just been inducted into the Smithsonian museum of African-American history and culture. So it's now part of our national heritage. So that feels like a beginning, as much as it feels like a culmination. And there's so many offshoots and opportunities. I mean, I'm going to Oregon next weekend to see to talk about it and new projects that I'm hoping to do in San Quentin. So, yeah, I mean, eventually, of course, you know, I'll retire, but, you know, there are lots of new souls that I encounter every semester. And so I feel blessed to have an opportunity to continue to play that role, and I'll keep doing it until, I guess, I can't anymore. 00:41:23.600 --> 00:41:36.660 Chris, is there anything that you would like to mention to our audience, new projects that you would like people to be aware of or things that you'd like to point people to? 00:41:36.660 --> 00:41:39.580 Well, yeah. 00:41:39.580 --> 00:43:00.100 I mean, to get a sense of what we're talking about with Question Bridge, you can go to questionbridge.com. And what you'll see is that what the team... that Hank and I built around Question Bridge. That includes Bayate Ross-Smith and Kamal Sinclair and Jesse Williams and Delroy Lindo are parts of our executive producer team. And that video project on the web is an ever-growing, complex conversation of questions and answers that black men are sharing with each other. But what I'm working on is trying to get the incredible content that we were able to gather during the four years that we did that project into schools. Because if there's any pressing need now... It's a way for young people to experience African-American men as human beings rather than as stereotypes. I think black males are unfortunately one of the most opaque demographics. What we tend to see are the projections. And Question Bridge cuts right through that because the humanity that's shared in the project is so wide. 00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:49.960 kids at the middle school and high school level can hear these men's voices, and the teachers can use it as a way to build real authentic conversations about race and identity as an antidote to all of the negative impressions that our culture gives us about black men. So that's something that I'm working on actively. And I've got other projects that I'm working on as well. But that's maybe another story. 00:43:51.500 --> 00:44:00.500 Well, that's... That's fantastic. And the Smithsonian, does the Smithsonian have a website or a portal that people can access? 00:44:02.320 --> 00:45:01.200 No. I mean, at this point, you know, it just opened about a month ago. And so Question Bridge Black Males will be up for a year. So you'd have to go there. But it's also there's a there's a piece of it that's up online. at, um, in Eugene, Oregon. Um, so, so there are places, if you go to a website, you can see a listing of places that it's actually available to see. Um, and you know, when we, when we started that project, this version of question bridge, um, back in 2007, we had no idea, you know, that we'd have an African-American president or that, you know, the, the, the crisis of, of black male, um, violence from police would be such a dramatic moment in our time. And so, you know, you do these kinds of projects hoping that you never have to do them again, but it turns out that Question Bridge is more relevant timely now than we imagined. 00:45:01.200 --> 00:45:06.880 Well, Chris, thank you so much. Fantastic to meet you, and I hope we get the chance to talk again soon. 00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:13.760 That would be great, Trent. Thank you so much for the opportunity to talk to Sabrina again and you. Absolutely. Thank you. 00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:58.000 Bye-bye. Okay, bye-bye. And that is our episode for this week. Chris Johnson, thank you so much for your time. Really, really excellent conversation. And thank you for listening to this podcast. If you like it, please take a moment to write a review on iTunes, which you can do with the help of the link: roominthetrees.com/itunes You can become our patron for $3-$5 a month at patreon.com/room If you think this or any episode is particularly good, you can now leave a tip by clicking the tip jar in the show notes for this episode. which can be found at roominthetrees.com. And I hope you join us again next week. 00:45:58.680 --> 00:46:07.360 Until then, you're great. Go make something. ♪