Trenton ReynoldsIt is Thursday, April 21st, 2016. This is Room in the Trees, a podcast about creative depression and pain. No joke there, man. It's a podcast about living life as a creative person, good and bad. Not going to lie, things get a little heavy today. But hang in there. It's worth it. The following episode was recorded on March 24th, 2016. This is episode number two, The Disabler. The Room in the Trees is hosted by Sabrina Ward-Harrison. and me, Trent Reynolds. The podcast is made possible by you. If you like what you hear, please consider showing your support by becoming our patron at patreon.com backslash room. Some big love going out to Elizabeth Needham this week. She is our very first patron ever. on patreon.com. Elizabeth, I don't know you, but I am sending all sorts of warmth and gratitude your way today. Sabrina tells me you are a wonderful person and I believe it. Thanks for being the first and thanks for supporting Room in the Trees. Consider yourself in the room.
You've made it.
Trenton ReynoldsWe're still figuring out the right format for our conversations. For now, the general idea is that one of us will choose a thought, quote, subject, or something to get a conversation started. And then we talk about it for a while. The website is another important part of Room in the Trees. Go to roominthetrees.com to see show notes, pictures, videos, and other stuff related to each episode. You can also leave us brief feedback at the website. And now we begin. I chose our prompt for today, and it comes from a book that I love and that is widely read in art programs everywhere. The book is called "Art and Fear" which was written by David Bayliss and Ted Orland. And this is not their quote, but it's a quote that they use in their book. The quote is from Steven Disabler. Disstabler. I don't know if I'm saying that right.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonDisabler.
Trenton ReynoldsDis...what?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt's an awkward last name. It sounds like disabler. Oh, it is?
Trenton ReynoldsDisabler. Or like he's destabling something? Like something stable? Yeah. Anyway. Steven Destabler. Disabling something.
Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsGo ahead. Sorry. I think we can just keep on going on Steven's team.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonDisable. It's just like, it's like disable. Yes.
Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsYeah. Disable or destable.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWe'll invite him to the podcast next.
Trenton ReynoldsYeah. Yeah. Steven, reach out if you hear this. The quote is, "Artists don't get down to work until the pain of working is exceeded by the pain of not working." I'm going to read that one more time. "Artists don't get down to work until the pain of working is exceeded by the pain of not working." Have you ever read the book The War of Art by Steven Pressfield, another notorious Steven?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI have not, but you have referenced him in previous conversations about art.
Trenton ReynoldsYes, and I probably will annoyingly refer to that book many times. It's a tiny book, but it really resonated with me. But he talks a lot about your work. He talks a lot about becoming a pro, and a pro puts in time, does his work every day, shows up. And that's what this, when I read this quote, "Artists don't get down to work." So what is an artist's work? What's your work? How would you define that? What is your work?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWell, I found this a really interesting quote to reflect on because, again, I thought, well, what's the definition of work? Because I think for an artist, one wrestles with there's so much cerebral work that goes on there's so much reflection and observation and that can become very self-conscious but conflicting thing with the modern-day work, you know, what means you're actually working. Like you could just make a bunch of crap all day and that could be working, but giving yourself a little peace of mind to reflect and Oh, it's a really complicated thing because if you're not working, sometimes working means stepping outside and observing the world and being really present.
Trenton ReynoldsWell, I think there are lots of different facets to an art practice, you know, ways to keep yourself from getting blocked, there are ways to keep yourself moving and making stuff. And some of that obviously is like to get out and not, you know, isolate yourself or pursue self-destructive type things. But I think... I don't know. And I think you're right that part of the work of making, of being an artist, is cerebral, is giving yourself the time and space and creating an environment where you can think about it, to consider it, and be in tune with it, rather than having it just be in the back of your mind or a secondary thing. It needs your full attention and engagement. To do the best work, yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt also, like to make your, we've talked about this before, about making work just sort of, sometimes you're, you know, sometimes a bit of pre- pre-work work, you know, where you get yourself set up and grounded and zoned in with what you why you're what why you're making the work you're making.
Trenton ReynoldsBut I think there's, and this is part of the War of Art book as well, there is this sense that, you know, that you need to feel inspired to be able to work. And I don't think that's the case. I do think there is, I think you need to put in the time, like to just, even if you don't feel it, even if you don't feel inspired, even if you, you know, hate it, you've got to be willing to just put in the hours.
Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsSo, I don't know, there's, I think, multiple facets, multiple ways to think about it. This particular quote resonated with me just at the place that I'm at in my life, and Because about two months ago, I don't know, maybe it's been a lot longer than that, I can't remember, time passes by so fast. But there was a time when I just was very unhappy and I had not made my own work in a long time. The only work that I was making at that time were were paintings done in art classes as demonstrations that I didn't care about. You know, they're projects or whatever, just fast paintings to show people how to paint. And it wasn't my work. So one day I decided that I was just going to give myself permission to give, you know, to use the whole day just to take it and not worry about making money, not worry about what the kids need or what my wife needs or all the stresses that are constantly there, I just gave myself the day to do my own thing and make a painting. And after that day, I felt so calm and balanced and filled. And I guess it made me realize that that it's something that I need just to maintain equilibrium, you know, something that I need to be sane. And what I realized, too, is that I think that's what this quote is all about, is, like, the pain, I realized that there was a tax, there was... you know, there was something that I wasn't getting that I needed. There was a pain, yeah. I mean, there was pain from not working. And that finally got to a point where I just had to do it. That's very well said. And I also see this, I guess, I'm going to be talking too much, but my wife, Laura, is also an artist, and that's her background, that's her training, and she has not made work consistently for years, you know, since before our kids were born. And... And then last year she did this project where she did a collaboration and ended up making a book of writings and collages with her sister. And she loved it. And I could see that it did the same thing for her that it did for me that one day filled her and made her feel more connected. And, you know, like she was able to express herself in that way. And then just recently she has been talking more just about making time to make art. So I think for us, both of us, the pain of working, so part of the quote is this idea that artists don't get down to work until the pain of working, so there is pain in working, is exceeded by the pain of not working. The pain of working for me and Laura, For Laura and I? For me and Laura? For me and Laura is the stress... Laura and I. Laura and I. The stress of working is for I?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt's Laura and I.
Trenton ReynoldsAre you sure it's not Laura and me? Anyway. Yeah, Laura and I. Because it would be the stress of working for me... Not the stress of working for I.
Anyway. Laura and I.
Trenton ReynoldsLaura and myself. Laura and myself. Okay.
Laura and myself.
Trenton ReynoldsSo the pain of working for us at this moment in our lives is the sacrifices that we have to make in... getting childcare and not is the opportunity cost of not getting like just downtime to relax and recover from yeah being full-time parents and the stress caused by taking time doing stuff that's not making money you know and I feel this pressure you know to provide for my family so there is pain in actually working because of all the things that I'm not doing when I'm doing my work. But both her and I have reached a point, I think, in this past year where that pain of not doing our work, not creating, we've started to see it exceeding the pain that's caused by actually making the sacrifices we need to do the work.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonExactly. And let's just make it... So you two are parents to three children under the age of five.
Trenton ReynoldsYes, three daughters under the age of five. And it's crazy.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI personally don't have... I don't have children, but I have two dogs.
And honestly, that...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonThat, in its own funny way, is very consuming. Like, it affects... I can't really go travel, and if I travel, I have to pay for two dogs being cared for. Right. It's funny. You know, it's not remotely the same, but... I don't even mean to drive any reference, any comparison to that, but... well you have to take care of like for example if i roll if if i roll something out on the floor and i get into a project and then they hear me and or smell me and they're in their the room are crated and they start crying like you guys seriously i'm just rolled this all out i'm getting all set up give me an hour to just and if they come out there's a chance they're gonna mark the thing and pee on it yep And there's nowhere to relate. And so that thing about, like, you get it all set up to work, and then you're like, seriously, this is... So I empathize with the situation, both the two of you, and for Laura being a full-time mom and then having that, like, she gets supplies out, but the kids are awake. They're like, I'm sure they want to play with it. And she's like, oh, my gosh.
Right. That's...
Trenton ReynoldsBut I think regardless for both of us, the responsibilities over living beings, whether it be a dog or a child, we've both had just this past year or two or more... has just been tremendously stressful just to maintain life, you know, like our own. Like you've had stuff going on in your personal life and finding a place that you feel is home and... Not having my stuff. Yeah, you've got your stuff across the other side of the country.
Oregon.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd also, I think the interesting, another question I have about this is that when you sit down to work, I was thinking about this before our conversation today, was there's so many, if we were, again, we kind of talked about social media last week. There's so many things you could so go well if I'm gonna work. I'm gonna work on like for you were working on the what your website or I Should follow up with these people or I I'm not very good at juggling and sort of
doing
Sabrina Ward Harrisonhaving multiple balls in the air, and people say, you should be doing another workshop, or maybe, like, why aren't you promoting the commissions, or what about the licensing? Right, right. Sometimes when you sit down to work, you're like, I don't freaking know.
Right.
Sabrina Ward Harrisonit can kind of paralyze you a little bit with...
Trenton ReynoldsOh, for sure. I think that's the issue here. When I saw this work, I mean, this quote of the pain of working, that pain isn't... Like, I love working. When I get into pain, I'm happy, right? That's a very fulfilling activity for me. But the pain of that work is what I'm not doing. And like the psychological gravity or the stress that I feel because of all the things that I'm choosing not to do. Or that the perceived responsibilities are things that I ought to be doing that I'm passing or cutting out. And I think that's kind of the times we're living in. I think, I couldn't have said it better, like the whole social media thing is this huge psychological load, you know? Like there's this feeling that we need to get our work out there and we need to be active in uploading pictures and comments and creating a community and like, that's a full-time job just by itself. - Yeah. And it's tricky just allowing you, giving yourself the permission to pick and choose the parts of that, the parts of social media that you feel like you can handle, that feel like a good fit for your personality, or choosing just to disregard it and decide that it's just not for you, right? And those are hard decisions to make.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, not feeling guilt about...
Trenton ReynoldsYeah, guilt. Ugh, guilt.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonUgh, I hate the guilt stuff. I hate the guilt. I think that's been the biggest detrimental aspect, I think, of social media is...
and the working.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI think that's why I really loved making books because it goes back to school. I studied graphic design and photography, and I like a project. I like being given a...
something that's
Sabrina Ward Harrisonit wasn't about one page of a book it was the whole thing it was loose because it was and I could sort of structure out the and I knew what I was doing oh my gosh I knew what I was like I knew the bigger project and I could just it's probably similar to like working on a film or something like it's a bigger thing than just one specific, the self-consciousness that's attached to one piece.
Right.
Trenton ReynoldsAnd there is a way to finish it, whereas it feels like a lot of what we do, there's no end. There's no stopping point. There's no milestones. It's just this continuing... monster, you know, that feels like a monster.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonThumbs up, everyone listening. Go forth and be an artist. Yes. High five.
Trenton ReynoldsYou know what I was thinking as I've been getting more and more depressed the more we talk about this quote, is that perhaps some of our prompts ought to be not quotes, but maybe more like the prompts that you give some of your workshops, just memories, favorite art materials, just prompts that get us talking about stuff that aren't necessarily quotes. What do you think about that?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWe could divide it in half because I think people listening to this...
I...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI feel that there's other people that feel this way, too.
Trenton ReynoldsOh, for sure. I just think it's got to... Is it going to be... I just feel like it's so heavy. Last weekend, this week was... I know. Maybe that's just inevitable because that's where we're at right now. It's just things...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt's a heavy time. I think it's a lot of people just... So I haven't looked at one of my books, this book, Messy Thrilling Life. I haven't had a copy of it for about five years. No, three years. But a friend lent me her copy of my book.
Awesome.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBut I opened the introduction. It just resonated with me when we were talking just now. So I'm going to probably bumble through it, but let me take a drink of water. So this is from Messy Thrilling Life, The Art of Figuring Out How to Live. Remember building the best fort ever, and then how the dog charged through the living room and across the pillows, and how the blanket slid out from under the stack of books holding it down, and how the whole thing fell apart, but also how this broken down mess was what got you outside, out to that wide field, where you found some jacked up old wood and a random shoe, and then how you found yourself starting again, building something altogether new. How you sat there with dirt under your fingernails, digging away, and how the sun was setting, and you looked up to see a new view emerging from across the wide field and over the lake, a world that was waiting for you, but which you wouldn't have seen if the dog hadn't charged through the living room. That's how these pages are made. They are bits and beginnings, little forts I set up in my studio and in my dreams. They're the beginnings of conversations to be continued. They are notes to myself, all the things I want to remember. A winter night spent dancing on my rooftop, feeling my life was complete as is. I was right where I was meant to be in the world. This book captures the way I carried these moments that made up my life, the way my questions look to me and the way I find what is true for my life. This book is not a straight line with all the perfect pieces filled in just right. This is a document of how we can trapeze about wondering how we... can devise plans and theories on how to make life feel better, more safe and right, more beautiful, and how all the while our life, this big, messy, thrilling life, is waiting for us to step into, to dance, to write about, and to live. This is a book about doing just that. June 10, 2004. 11 years ago.
11 years ago. But that... I think...
Trenton ReynoldsI can I say something about that that quote yes I kind of fixated on that first part about the fort and when yeah the dog runs through the fort and destroys it you know or yeah metaphorically speaking when The stresses of life or a relationship or something runs through your precious creation, you know, or something that you feel like you're trying to make. There's a pain involved in that loss, right, you know, when that thing is destroyed. that pain can become a barrier to then wanting to rebuild or to start over again, right? Because you just remember or you're afraid of losing it again or you're afraid of hurting that way again when it's stashed or destroyed. And I think for me... I, there was a moment when I felt like my aspirations to, you know, show work in a gallery or be a, be a, you know, a real, a real boy, a real artist, I feel like they were kind of torn apart just by the realities of, you know, it's hard to make a living being an artist. And so I kind of packed up that, that idea of being an artist. because I didn't feel like it was a reality for me and I couldn't bear to hope that I could actually do it. Anyway, I feel like that pain, that pain of not being able to kind of meet that expectation that I had had for so long or that dream kept me from just, you know, doing what I could, you know, and making what I, what was there for me to make, you know, what was possible for me to make. Anyway, I think a lot of us have that pain, you know, I think, you know, when you go into another person's studio or when you find artwork that speaks to you, and you feel that little bit of pain of like, well, I have something that I want to say or that I want to make. I remember when I was, I get this all the time, like when I was in high school, I was actually really good at art, you know, something like that. And I think people have that pain of loss, like I used to really enjoy doing this and I used to really have dreams that I could, you know, make artwork that was meaningful and beautiful to other people, you know, that other people would want. And I think that kind of points to our own sense of loss or sense of what we do. Anyway, I'm kind of rambling. I'm trying to find the thought.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI think the interesting thing, the plowing through the living room, it's like... wow, wow. This. Okay. This. Okay. Life just like, I feel that with my parents' divorce, you just suddenly this huge life. This was written before that. I'm like looking back, this is going, things were fine in 2004. It was fine. And then you think, you know, um, that's an example in my, in my life that just, and I didn't publicly kind of know how to address that in my work. And people are like, you'll always find, you'll find a way to, you know, even both my mom and dad said, you'll find a way to process this through your work. I'm like, Dude, I don't know.
Yeah. But that...
Trenton ReynoldsWell, right there, that's a different kind of pain associated with making artwork that I think is very real for a lot of people. And that is that for a lot of people, creating artwork is a way of processing and a way of trying to understand what they're experiencing. And in that case, if you were to make artwork that was trying to process the divorce... that would be facing some really difficult, challenging, hard feelings, right? And that's its own kind of pain. And I can see how it would be overwhelming or that you wouldn't want to invite that into your creative space. Like, I don't even want to deal with that.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, it's that feeling like you just want to have a bit of solid ground before you go into the next phase.
Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsI think it's important for us to realize that there is pain both in making and creating and doing whatever it is that we feel compelled to do, whether it's a painting or a photograph or a book or a collage or whatever, but... There are different types of pain associated in that activity. Some of them are pain caused by what we're choosing to give up, to sacrifice to be able to do that. And some of them are a result of the actual process of making, you know, like we just talked about working through difficult feelings. But there is also a corresponding pain, I think, I just really like that that word was used. I don't think it's, I think the quote falls apart in certain situations, but there's also a pain involved in not doing your work. There's a pain, there are things that you're giving up and sacrificing by not making time for. to do your work. And I think this idea that, you know, we won't go get in the studio and actually make our work until the friction or the hurt, the pain caused by not doing it is greater than the different kinds of pain that are associated with actually doing it. And I think that realization, you know, that that there are these two kind of sides of that coin that both, both situations create friction, create pain, create, uh, you know, I don't know, different kinds of losses is.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd the physicality of it, it sort of reminds me of like saying, like, until you start exercising, you won't know how good it feels. You just have to get exercising and you'll feel the endorphins move.
Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsSo I would encourage myself and everybody out there.
face that pain.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd how would you tell... Sorry, there's a train going by. Yeah, that's a serious train. How would you tell people to... I know, I love it. How would you tell people... I'm thinking of that feeling of... So you don't get too frustrated with... Say you roll the paper and the dogs are all over it or the kids are all into your supplies. Yeah.
Trenton Reynoldshow do you do I don't know because it's for me at least the pain of not making work was wasn't apparent to me you know I what I didn't really realize what I was giving up you know the what I needed from making art I didn't realize you know what I was give what I didn't have so I guess I would I would say that I You just need to go on faith that you need to do your work. It's not just something that you do because it's fun or it's a creative outlet or whatever reasons you give yourself for why you're a creative person. It's something that you need to be who you need to be, right? To feel fulfilled, to fulfill your potential, I think. and that there will always be pain associated with, you know, there will always be sacrifices you have to make to do your work, and it's worth it. I think that's what I would say. It's just to realize and to have faith that making those sacrifices necessary for you to be able to do your work is worth it.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd it doesn't have to be... It doesn't have to have the answer. It doesn't have to be the answer.
It's just part of life.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI mean, it doesn't have to be... It doesn't have to look perfect. It's getting your hands into it.
Trenton ReynoldsYeah, I think you just got to do it. I think there's a fiction in a lot of our minds that, you know, you need to know what you're doing before you start. But the opposite is true. You know, you need to start so you can know what you're doing. Thanks for joining us. Come back next week. for a lot more laughing. Sabrina and I have a bunch of ideas for this podcast and for the website. We would like it to be much more than just an audio podcast. We'd like to find ways to give you excuses and reasons and an appetite for getting your hands dirty and making stuff. If you're interested in seeing where this goes, again, I would ask that you consider supporting us at patreon.com backslash room. and by sharing this podcast with your friends. The website is roominthetrees.com, where you can find show notes and much more. We're on Facebook. Music for this episode was provided by my brother Brent, who is fantastic. And you should check out his music on SoundCloud. His username is VentersStagMotel. Come back next week for episode three. Sounds woo.