WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.800 ♪ 00:00:09.800 --> 00:02:02.060 It is Tuesday, September 6, 2016. This is Room in the Trees, a podcast about... experiencing the not knowing, the process of creating and not knowing what you're doing. The following was recorded Thursday, September 1st, 2016. This is episode 19. I don't know what I'm doing. Room of the Trees is hosted by Trent Reynolds and me, Sabrina Harrison. Show notes including pictures, links, videos, and more for every episode can be found at room in the trees calm thank you for listening and joining us every week we'd love that you there. Go to the show notes and tell us what you're doing, what's your morning routine, or when are you listening to this? It'd be fun to know. If you are enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to rate us or leave a review on iTunes, which you can go to by going to roominthetrees.com. And if you cannot wait to show a little monetary support of like $5 a month, you can rush to patreon.com. Just subscribe and get special additional content on occasion. We really appreciate your support. We are almost at our 20th episode. Enjoy today. I just had this moment today that, it just, talking about the voice in your head and just something about it, just, I feel like I have to share it 'cause it's on my heart. Yesterday I had, I was getting all these prints out into the mail and I was trying to return something with a UPS pickup. And there was just some confusion with my doorbell was unplugged so I didn't hear the doorbell. Anyway, so I've become friends with the UPS guy. nice guy, and so he was coming to explain why he couldn't ship this huge rug that I actually didn't pack up. I just rolled it up and put it on the board. 00:02:08.460 --> 00:02:09.500 It's so weird. 00:02:09.500 --> 00:02:27.920 Sorry, it did say though on Amazon that you didn't have to... Okay, that's not part of this. That's not really important for the story. But, so while I'm outside and he's explaining this to me, 00:02:28.100 --> 00:02:31.280 I see a little squirrel running... 00:02:34.760 --> 00:02:35.260 Okay. 00:02:35.200 --> 00:02:39.200 running up the tree and he's got its baby 00:02:39.200 --> 00:03:00.900 it's carrying its baby with it and I said oh my gosh look at it's the squirrel's got his baby with it and both of us I'm like I've never seen that before and he said I've never seen that before either and I'm like oh that's so sweet and so he's up it's like curled under its chin and it's running at the laughter 00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:16.200 laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter 00:03:16.200 --> 00:03:38.940 Okay, so we both are like, wow, that's, and I just couldn't get it out of my mind. It was, getting to the point. I was thinking, that's so sweet, and then I later saw, like, this one, this is so really One of this other little squirrels. 00:03:42.940 --> 00:04:06.620 On top of the little shed, like eating a little nut. It just totally sounds so funny. It sounds crazy. Okay, eating a little nut. And I was like, oh, that one's a little bit older. Yeah. And then this morning I was just back from CrossFit and I was walking the pups and the baby squirrel had fallen out of the tree and had died. 00:04:07.420 --> 00:04:09.140 Oh my gosh. 00:04:10.660 --> 00:04:12.900 So I started crying. 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:19.700 That story took a turn for the worse. Holy cow. 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:52.600 And I had this really visceral reaction of like, I just felt like I felt a lot of sadness for... Because, you know, the squirrels were probably really sad and then... And couldn't bury it. So I decided, I thought, I just can't, like... First of all, everyone is going to pass it all. It's a beautiful day and people are going to be walking down the street and every person is going to be sad about seeing this baby squirrel. 00:05:02.660 --> 00:05:03.160 And... 00:05:03.100 --> 00:05:06.640 This was like a really serious moment. 00:05:06.940 --> 00:05:07.560 I know. 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:26.800 I'm so confused. I know. I know. It's just got... I don't know. It sounds really ridiculous telling it. So I decided... I came upstairs, and I had my friend Jessie's birthday, and I was Skyping with her, and I just said, I just knew I had to bury that squirrel. 00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:30.500 And so... 00:05:30.500 --> 00:06:01.660 And I'm like, well, people are going to think I'm weird. I'll be shoveling like it's not really a place to bury it. And I just went down, got a shovel, and shoveled up through this, like, not really shovelable area that's just kind of heavy, lots of weeds and stuff. And I buried the squirrel, and I put some flowers above it. And I just felt... I feel a lot better. 00:06:03.280 --> 00:06:04.500 Good. Good. 00:06:07.140 --> 00:06:08.600 So... 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:14.600 Sometimes it's good to remember... 00:06:16.960 --> 00:06:27.620 I don't know. It felt like... It just... I don't know. It just was important to do. 00:06:30.440 --> 00:06:31.940 So that's... 00:06:31.940 --> 00:06:35.960 That's a really odd story to tell. 00:06:37.420 --> 00:06:37.980 But... 00:06:37.980 --> 00:07:11.100 The point. That's really sweet, though. Well, one, that you had that moment where you... You know, you witnessed this... you know, mom carrying her baby up the tree and kind of that familial, you know, squirrel moment. And then, you know, you got connected, you're attached in that moment. Yeah, I did. And to have it, you know, to see that the next day is just... 00:07:11.100 --> 00:07:22.780 And I was wondering maybe it was ill or maybe there was a reason it was taking it up the tree. Maybe it had already died and it was trying to take it up to its nest or something. 00:07:25.540 --> 00:07:29.540 And then you became part of the family and you were able to... 00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:30.760 I feel like that. 00:07:31.340 --> 00:07:35.280 You were able to... It's kind of do right by baby squirrel. 00:07:37.660 --> 00:07:42.560 When you don't have your own kids, 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:51.300 you're a woman. Sometimes I guess things like this, he just like get really maternal over random stuff. It's just really touching. 00:07:52.320 --> 00:07:54.560 So. That's happened. 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:04.140 Okay, so we are talking today about voices in our heads. 00:08:04.620 --> 00:08:05.120 Yeah. 00:08:06.700 --> 00:08:16.880 When we talked about this subject for conversation, you mentioned that you have... quite a few different voices in your head. Is that right? 00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:22.940 Man, you say it like this, it makes it sound like I'm crazy. 00:08:23.080 --> 00:08:29.560 What are they like? How would you describe... How would you describe the voices in your head? Like, what? 00:08:30.180 --> 00:09:28.200 The voices in my head are actual people. They're kind of recreations. They're personalities that I tend to have... conversations with about whatever it is that I'm struggling with or thinking about. So my father-in-law is one of the voices in my head. So when I'm struggling with something or trying to figure something out or if I'm insecure about something in my life, one of the ways that I seem to process that is to start having these conversations, you know, this back and forth, you know, dialogue with this like version of my father-in-law in my head. That's so interesting. Those voices, those people that I tend to have these conversations with have changed over the years, you know, as I've grown up. What's another one? Oh goodness, my dad. 00:09:29.100 --> 00:09:30.380 So how would it play out? 00:09:31.060 --> 00:10:02.380 It usually has to do with me justifying choices that I've made or where I'm at in my progress, you know, just in life. and trying to justify my decisions and talking through what the options are and why I made certain compromises or choices. My wife, I'll have, I don't know, this is one of those things that when you speak it out loud and start talking about it, it makes it into something more literal than it actually is in my head. 00:10:02.380 --> 00:10:14.520 No, I think people, because we all have it. But that's what's so interesting is it's hard to actually... because it's ineffable. Like, it's hard to... 00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:44.680 I mean, it's not like I schedule a conversation with my fictional father-in-law. If you did, that would be awkward. And, you know, it's just kind of these moments that pop up in my mind as I'm working through things that I struggle with, you know, just kind of imagining what his retort or what his logic would be. relating to whatever it is I'm thinking of. Yeah. So what was the question? 00:10:45.620 --> 00:10:48.620 What are the voices like in your head if you were to describe them? 00:10:51.320 --> 00:11:36.080 So I think that's very much what it is. It's just like a conversation. Like, I'll say, well, this is what I... or I guess what I'm doing or the decision I made is always already on my, in the forefront of my mind. So it's, I guess it starts with him saying like, why did you do that? And then to me it's like, well, I may, I did this for this reason. And then his retort would be, you know, some kind of logical rebuttal of that. Well, you know, that was a bad decision for this and this and this reason. And then I would say like, uh, You know, I thought of all those things, but this is why that wasn't, you know, the right decision or that going that direction wouldn't make sense. 00:11:38.340 --> 00:11:40.760 Wow, that sounds like a party. That sounds like fun. 00:11:40.820 --> 00:12:36.400 Oh my gosh, it's horrible. All of these things, I don't know. These are negative voices. I think there are positive voices as well, but... You know, it's horrible, though, because you're essentially creating... Well, for me, I'm essentially making... Creating fictional adversaries, you know? Of course, we don't need any more people... Chiming in. Chiming in, right, or kind of being against us. But somehow, like, my brain comes up with these... you know, these kind of adversarial voices that... And I don't know if it's a productive thing that helps me work through and problem-solve, or if it's just kind of an emotional, like, psychological mechanism that fires because of insecurities and... 00:12:36.400 --> 00:13:35.000 I remember specifically a certain moment when I was, I would say, 7 years old. I remember exactly... where I was, it was when we lived in Toronto, and I was up by my bedroom in the bathroom. I just remember these black and white tile floor. And having that moment of realizing that other people, like my mom and dad, had as many thoughts... Like, that they were not characters, you know, flat characters in the story of my life. But they were, like, all the range of what we're thinking that other people... I mean, this was for seven years old, but the other people had all those feelings and all those ideas and... 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.640 you know, 00:13:40.780 --> 00:13:56.200 if when you, I find, I'm, yeah, when you're, you're thinking about what they're thinking about in their head, and then you're reflecting that back to then you like, like you're thinking what he's thinking in his head. 00:13:58.400 --> 00:14:06.060 But everybody's thinking about so many things in their own head. 00:14:11.340 --> 00:14:12.060 Dude. 00:14:13.300 --> 00:14:14.180 Dude. Dude. 00:14:20.040 --> 00:14:27.760 Yeah. Yeah. I remember. Well, so. Go ahead. I'm sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead. 00:14:29.420 --> 00:14:47.920 I was just thinking, so in terms of these voices on a, like, to try to bring it to something that's relevant to our conversations, how does that affect your creativity or how does it affect your artistic production? 00:14:48.640 --> 00:14:49.200 Yeah. 00:14:49.200 --> 00:16:17.200 Well, for example, this week I rented this gallery space in Madison. This was just affordable, which was great, but it was a big space for the week just to have a space to roll out and do some work. And I wrestled with all the... For me, the voices in my head are like, I'm going to get, you know... Like, I was thinking about what the woman who I rented it from, she was kind of in charge of the rentals, she wasn't thinking about, she did not care, I was all tied into thinking, is she coming and looking at what I've done, when I leave? Like I felt, for someone, people I don't even know. The feeling that people were walking by my work in progress, I couldn't really drop into my... I had all these people I don't even know's voices in my head of like going, she rented the gallery space to do that? Like what is she... On crack? Like what? Just instead of really having my own experience, I really felt that I had a... And I know it's my own fault, but I just... 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:32.300 So you'd put in a day at this gallery space, and then you would, as you were working, you'd be anticipating the woman who rented you the space coming in after you left and judging what you had done? 00:16:32.300 --> 00:16:59.520 It's almost like I had the voices while I was working. Like normally I don't really question when I'm working on stuff, why I'm making what I'm making, and I really felt that I, as I was putting one color over this color and getting this to play out, I had in my head going, what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? Really? You know, that the whole time. And so it just wasn't fun. 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:01.600 It was... 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:24.900 And do you think that that what are you doing voice was a product of you being in that space? Yes, yes, yes. And kind of having that virtual audience judging you and saying, so those were the voices. It was other these other voices kind of say judging your decisions and, you know, saying what is that being critical of you? 00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:38.020 Yeah, and it gave me a lot of empathy because I remembered probably that feeling in high school. Like, I haven't done work... Not that there was anyone in the space with me, but I was going to say, I haven't done work around people in a while. 00:17:40.840 --> 00:17:48.020 All these people in here. Crowded. Give me some space. 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:56.780 I felt... I just felt like, what was I saying? What was I going to say about that? 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:18.420 Thinking of high school students or, you know, when you're as a teacher, and because I've taught workshops in the space before, I had empathy for being in a class and taking a class and trying to do new stuff that you've never done before in front of other people. It's really hard. 00:18:19.120 --> 00:18:20.600 Right. Yeah. 00:18:20.600 --> 00:18:28.040 It doesn't tend to be fun, I would guess. 00:18:28.040 --> 00:19:16.300 Right. That is really actually very close to what I was going to talk about. with what happened in my workshop this week. Yeah, what happened? So on Tuesday, I had published on the calendar that I was going to be doing a demonstration about a mixed media, a demonstration of a mixed media portrait. And for this demonstration, I was going to try something new. Rather than having a kind of predetermined set of steps, I was going to instead treat it as if it were my own project. and just go about things as I would normally do on my own, you know, if left to my own devices in my studio by myself. - Mm-hmm. 00:19:16.300 --> 00:19:19.680 - Because I think-- - Can you say that again a little slower? 00:19:19.680 --> 00:20:06.740 - Yeah, so instead of having, like what I usually do with demonstrations is I'll have, I'll try to wrap it up a little bit more cleanly. - Mm-hmm. - And have, like, this is what we're doing and these are the steps that we're gonna take to get there. And that's a really important thing to do in teaching because it makes it more palatable. It makes it more approachable, accessible, all these things. In the limited amount of time that you have in a classroom, you don't want to leave it too open-ended or it's hard for people to really feel like they came away learning something. But that's kind of what I want people to experience, though, is the not knowing, is the open-endedness of art making. That's what I love about it. And that's what I feel like is missing in a normal art classroom. 00:20:07.360 --> 00:20:07.860 Yeah. 00:20:07.940 --> 00:22:32.680 Like that's the excitement. That's why we're here is because we don't know. And there's possibility and there's this exploration and we're breaking new ground. Anyway, so that was the idea. It's like for this demonstration, I wanted to just walk people through art. what I would do in my personal kind of art making and exploration. So they got to the workshop on Tuesday morning. I had printed out three, or we went through the process. They brought in images of people that they wanted to do a painting of. It was a mixed-media portrait. We scanned them into the computer. I printed out three copies for everybody of their portrait. And then we sat down and I had ink and paint and matte medium and scissors and I just started tearing up my three portraits. I was doing a portrait of one of my daughters. I was tearing it up and I used sandpaper to kind of sand parts of it away and then I painted into it with some white acrylic. I was just playing around with, and I talked a little bit about my thought process of being interested in the relationship between man-made marks or hand-made marks and photographic imagery and the way we relate to those different visual languages differently and how they can create this tension. Just kind of my thought process or things that I was interested in or thinking about as I was going about this. And one of my students was really bothered by... And then I said, you know, go ahead and get started. And she was really frustrated. She's really... She's a great friend and she wasn't antagonistic in any way. But she was, you know, verbally very... just flustered, you know, and feeling like what I was doing was different than what she had expected when she came to the workshop and that she just didn't know what to do. And that I wasn't being clear enough about what she was supposed to do. And then she just didn't know where to even start. And that was very alarming to her anyway. So that in that moment, I guess I realized that, that that is, that thing that she was frustrated about is exactly what I wanted for her. 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:33.520 - Mm-hmm. 00:22:34.820 --> 00:24:42.200 - Like, and in that moment I realized, like, I wanna make a big banner, that says, "I don't know what I'm doing," and put it up on the wall. - Yes. - And say, like, "This is it. This is the point. I don't know what I'm doing." - Yeah. - Like, as a teacher, that's what I want you to understand. And I say that in my classes over and over again, because I want, you know, but I think people, don't believe it, well, they say, well, you have enough experience that even if you don't know what you're doing, you'll be able to put something together because you have skills developed, right? But I got to that point all the way not knowing what I was doing even when I didn't have any skills, right? Right. Anyway, so it kind of struck me that, I guess not for the first time, but in maybe a more direct way that this mantra of I don't know what I'm doing. And having, creating an environment, a space, an attitude of embracing that, of not knowing, was important. So the way this was, is a good thing. So the way this ties into what you were just talking about is I feel like she was there sitting in that moment, surrounded by other people and by me. Yeah. looking at her and she had these materials in front of her and she felt like she couldn't start because I, and this is me projecting on her, people would be saying like, that was a stupid thing to do. Why are you doing that? That's not the right way to do it. And, you know, like she anticipated all these, this negative response if she got started in doing something. Do you think? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I don't think it necessarily would have been that literal in her mind. Like if I start, they're going to say bad things or I'm going to feel stupid or like, you know, they're judging me. I don't think she was thinking that. But I think that is kind of an underlying dynamic that's that kind of is built in. 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:49.440 And I think people, you feel kind of mad at your, you feel mad that you can't drop in, you know? 00:24:50.280 --> 00:24:58.240 Yeah, well, you feel stupid, you feel incompetent, you feel not deserving, you feel, you know, and it's totally understandable. 00:24:58.860 --> 00:24:59.360 Yeah. 00:24:59.300 --> 00:25:44.300 So I was thinking about that and how I want this I don't know what I'm doing thing to be a mantra. I want this to be a space where nobody knows what they're doing. And that's an exciting, empowering thing. But I thought that alongside that, there needs to be a qualifying phrase that's like... but you have to act from a position of power, meaning that you don't know what you're doing, but you've got to approach it with what you do know rather than with what you don't know. Yes, yes, yes. 00:25:44.760 --> 00:25:46.800 It's kind of like, you got this. 00:25:46.800 --> 00:26:58.140 Yeah, and well, so for example, in this case, she has these three pieces of paper, she has all these supplies around her, and if she were to approach that not from a position of power, but from a position of weakness and fear and... anticipation of judgment and all these things, all these negative expectations that she's carrying. If she approaches it from that place of weakness, then she's going to kind of poke at it and she's going to kind of weakly, you know, make a mark and she's not going to enjoy it and she's going to feel judged and unworthy and all these things. But if she were to approach it from a position of power, meaning with the things that she does know, I mean, she knows how to she knows a pencil can make a mark. And if she takes that pencil and she makes the most confident mark that she knows how to make. no matter what that mark is, she's acting out of, uh, out of knowing, out of power, out of experience, out of, you know, from a strong foundation rather than out of fear and out of anticipation. Does that, does that make sense? I'm not sure. 00:26:58.300 --> 00:27:00.860 I really, I really like that. That's a very, 00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:19.280 I'm trying to work through this in my own mind as I'm, as I'm speaking it out. But so, so that those two together feel like, and maybe there are more qualifiers that need to, to be in place along with those two things. But, uh, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm acting out of a position of power. 00:27:22.420 --> 00:27:26.320 I love it. I'm struggling to... 00:27:26.320 --> 00:27:47.420 So what could be something that where, for example, she can make a decisive line. What about sort of like make in any direction, in any way, or all on top of each other, make 50 marks? Yeah. decisive marks with whether it's different materials or... 00:27:48.300 --> 00:28:29.060 Well, in this case, I know she's a mixed media artist. I know she's done collage before. I know she's experienced handling these materials, right? She actually has a lot of experience that can inform what she chooses to do. Right? Yeah. She's got a lot of tools already there. So she has plenty of ground to stand on to act out of power instead of acting out of her fears. So I guess that's the trick is being able to... To not... I don't know, to identify those things and just do it. Just try it. 00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:43.700 What do you think the shift... Like, I'm trying to think of how... What was... Do you think it's like that subtle shift, like something has to click and then she's off and running? 00:28:45.380 --> 00:29:19.100 Yes, that's what I'm struggling with, is I think it's so close, right? She has everything that she needs in that moment. And I'm trying to come up with a way to unlock and give her permission to act and not feel self-conscious. Like it's bad that she doesn't know what she's doing. I don't know. Maybe it's not the right way to think of it. To think of it as, you know, that I don't know what I'm doing. 00:29:19.100 --> 00:29:26.740 Yeah, it makes me think about that book, wonderful book, Drawing on the Right Hand Side of the Brain, or which is it? 00:29:26.740 --> 00:29:28.280 Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain. 00:29:28.280 --> 00:29:41.300 Yeah, and having to do the portrait upside down, draw a portrait. Just the exercises to get out of the self-consciousness of the head. 00:29:41.300 --> 00:29:44.800 Yeah, talk more about that. 00:29:44.800 --> 00:30:21.200 Like the preciousness. One thing for me is, as you know, I usually work with found, pretty much found materials. I don't usually start with white paper. And now as I'm literally just thinking this a second ago, I'm thinking that's partly what was challenging. three rolls of 10 yards by 36 and 48 big pieces of long pieces of paper and I thought I'm gonna fill these all up over the course of the week 00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:21.980 Mm-hmm. 00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:42.400 And so something about the... There's a preciousness also because I don't usually buy nice art supplies and this was, like, heavy. And when I use paper, I don't usually use very good paper. And it was good mixed-media paper. And it made it too precious, I think. 00:30:42.980 --> 00:30:43.480 Mm-hmm. 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:49.300 Like, I... Um... 00:30:49.300 --> 00:31:02.300 I even found the way I was handling it, trying to just drag it around a little bit over the floor, and just... something needed to happen to it to just break it loose and break... 00:31:05.300 --> 00:31:31.700 It's like cracking an egg open and then you need something needed to... break open so I could work with the materials were also new and I think it's even new materials are hard when you use some new ink and you're like well even a little thing of it 00:31:31.700 --> 00:31:33.540 and 00:31:33.540 --> 00:31:46.780 I think that's why I've always liked working with stuff that's just nothing important hmm do you think do you think it was something go ahead 00:31:46.780 --> 00:31:49.520 I was going to say I think you're onto something yeah 00:31:49.520 --> 00:31:50.600 Yeah. 00:31:50.600 --> 00:31:57.680 I wonder if the printout you did, was it the preciousness that you had done these big printouts and that was sort of intimidating? 00:31:58.800 --> 00:32:20.520 Well, this was before we did the big printouts. I made 8 1⁄2 by 11 printouts. So the idea is that we were going to rough those up and mess around with them and recombine them and tear them up and paint on them and stuff. And then once we had done that and come up with something that was to our satisfaction, we scanned those in and blew them up really large. 00:32:23.800 --> 00:32:35.020 And then we take those large pieces, glue them down to watercolor paper, and then next week we're going to be painting into those and collaging and developing the images even further. 00:32:37.800 --> 00:33:23.480 But so originally, these three printouts that I didn't, maybe that is the case, that she felt that there was a certain preciousness or unapproachable sheen, you know, barrier that kept her from being able to just attack these things and... mess them up because she was afraid that if she wouldn't, I don't know, that, that she wouldn't be able to recover something that if, if she messed it up too much or, but you know, my point, and maybe I didn't make this clear is that I'll just print out another one. If, if you, if it's irretrievable and you want to, you wanted to try something else, well, we can, we can print out 50 more if you want. Maybe that could be helpful. Like 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:26.400 just re give them a stack of 10 of them. 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:27.240 Mm-hmm. 00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:47.540 I was thinking, like, making, I like the idea of doing something absurdly, like, an amount of, like, I'm going to make 200 marks this afternoon with different things on one of these rolls of paper. 00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:48.420 Mm-hmm. 00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:54.680 and something so it's not using too much of my ego part of my brain. 00:33:55.620 --> 00:34:14.880 And I think there are many artists that purposely set up rules for themselves so they don't have to listen to the voices. Artists that just give themselves a system to work within, and then they can turn their brain off and just enjoy the process of... of following that set of, or that system that they've created for themselves. 00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:45.280 - One thing I loved once, sometimes in my workshops when they're long enough and they're like four or five days and I've really loved how this has turned out, is I have people pick a color and then that's their color for the week and so when they're out in the world, I did this for about a year where I just collected the color blue but it makes you sort of like, if you were, if all the one thing could be like, I'm only going to use a red all day today with whatever I work on. They can be all different shades of red. They can, but I can use anything I find that's red. 00:34:47.900 --> 00:34:49.620 Um, but 00:34:49.620 --> 00:34:58.780 so when they're journals that they end up making by the end of the week they just have this it just keeps it also helps you just pay attention to walking around 00:34:58.780 --> 00:37:29.560 well there you just that just made something make sense for me so sometimes limited options is more can be more empowering than having all the options in the world yes and that reminds me of a part of the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance have we talked about that before? Love the book, but I can't remember if I've mentioned this story before. If so, I can cut it out. But he talks about this guy that is the narrator of the book, talks about a student that came to, he gave this assignment to write a piece about the city that they lived in. The student came back the next week. She couldn't think of anything to write, like just blank. Nothing came to mind. Then he said, well, then he gave her the assignment, well, just go and write about the street you live on in the city. And then she came back the next week, same thing. Nothing came to mind. I don't have anything to say about the street that I live in. He said, well, then he gave her another assignment this week, just write about the building that you lived in on that street. Okay. Same thing, next week she came back, I don't have anything to say about the building I live in. Then he gave her assignment, we'll write about one brick on that building that you live in. And then the next week she came back with, you know, pages and pages having written, you know, a ton of things. And I think that's a gross simplification of what he wrote and the way he told the story. But the idea I think is an important one, and that is that sometimes, getting more specific about your starting point or a way to enter into creating can be more empowering than trying to give yourself more options or open it up even larger. So it may be in this case, giving my students, instead of putting out all these supplies and saying, like, you can do anything you want, and you can use paint, and you can use ink, and you can use sandpaper, and you can tear them up, or whatever. Maybe instead of that, I would just giving them fewer options and saying, here are three pieces, here are three copies of that photograph, and I want you to maybe even just tearing them up or just giving them a piece of sandpaper and having them destroy it. And that's just one thing that they're doing instead of giving them a lot of options. I don't know. 00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:55.400 Or timing it like... Sometimes the worships I've done where you just have, it's sort of like musical chairs, you just have maybe three or four different spots around the studio and then they get up, you're like, and switch, and switch, and switch, and it can be 30 seconds, but they only have to do something, they have to make a mark or do something with that material at that location and then move on to the next. 00:37:55.400 --> 00:38:14.960 Right, right. So limiting the amount of, that they can start creating these voices of expectation and judgment and all those things like narrowing that down and limiting the opportunity for that to happen yeah that makes sense 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:44.560 And just the action of moving around too and just, I always think the physicality of making, reminding, you know, just helps. You know, again, it comes back to the breath. It gets you kind of breathing and not like you're going to break a sweat moving around the studio. But, you know, you're standing up, doing something physical with your hands and your arms while you're making and not sort of hunching over, looking down at something. 00:38:45.100 --> 00:39:09.160 Yeah, I think your physical proximity, your physical relationship to the thing that you're making can have a big effect on your mental state for sure, right? Yeah. I think sitting down at a table hunched over something itself is an act of protecting and being precious and careful. Whereas if you're standing up, moving around, that physical relationship I think opens up. 00:39:09.160 --> 00:39:14.000 Yeah, like they could even do the ink where they have to have the ink at the end of a 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:15.180 Right. 00:39:16.300 --> 00:39:17.560 And do it standing up. 00:39:20.540 --> 00:39:21.040 Hmm. 00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:25.400 Things to think about. Yeah. Things to think about. In your head. 00:39:26.500 --> 00:39:31.500 But so in this gallery space, what we just talked about, does that relate to... 00:39:32.380 --> 00:39:32.880 Mm-hmm. 00:39:33.860 --> 00:39:50.900 Absolutely. I think it's a... I'm curious what people that are listening, their experience have been with that. I'd love to hear it. I'd love to hear if they've... They've experienced that. 00:39:50.900 --> 00:40:03.900 Yeah, or how they've overcome similar types of hangups or dealt with the voices. The voices of their fictional viewership. 00:40:03.900 --> 00:40:04.900 Yeah. 00:40:04.900 --> 00:40:12.460 How did it end up with you in the space though? Were you able to get past that and make something or did you end the week? 00:40:12.460 --> 00:40:41.740 I did some marks. I did a lot of marks on it and I brought them back. But it was funny because I got out my big backpacking backpack from years ago when I went to Italy. and I had brought all these supplies with me at the beginning of the week, and three huge rolls of paper, and I'd biked over with a lot of stuff, like turpentine, big things of ink, gel medium, you know, hammers, nails. 00:40:42.660 --> 00:40:49.700 It was pretty full on, and I had to do two runs with my bike to go get the rest of it. I'm like, and I'm back. 00:40:49.780 --> 00:40:54.840 It just unloaded everything. I'm like, well, that... That was that. 00:40:55.600 --> 00:41:00.400 So, um... I think... 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:31.460 I think... Like, I know... I think it also, I just didn't feel the joy in that. I just didn't feel the joy there. What I'm going to do today is bring all my big tomato plants in off the balcony. It's... And just roll out the paper outside and... The other thing, it was beautiful weather. On the balcony? Yeah. Yeah. I really think being outside has a big effect for me with stuff. Like, I need the natural world. 00:41:31.460 --> 00:41:58.600 When you're in Bonny Doon, you would leave sheets of paper outdoors, let them get rained on and stuff like that, right? That seems like a way to letting the elements interact with it. Yeah. That creates another, I don't know, way to keep from allowing it to get precious or allowing critical voices to creep in. 00:41:58.600 --> 00:42:08.880 Yeah, and the old, just roll, do something, roll it up when it's not dry yet, then marks happen, or fold it over itself, or... 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:09.380 Mm-hmm. 00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:15.540 That's when little moments of magic happen, like, if I hadn't done that, that wouldn't have happened, or... 00:42:15.540 --> 00:42:16.040 Mm-hmm. 00:42:16.540 --> 00:42:19.240 Again, so we should start wrapping it up. 00:42:20.200 --> 00:42:22.360 Yes. Yes. 00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:30.520 So what's on the calendar, Sabrina? What are you doing this week? 00:42:31.020 --> 00:42:31.620 CrossFit. 00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:44.600 CrossFit. Talk about empowerment. You sound like when you talk about CrossFit, I feel like you've got that. CrossFit is happening for you. 00:42:44.600 --> 00:43:43.300 Yeah, I had my first official first after fundamentals, my first official class today. And I have to say, I did get one moment I thought I was going to burst into tears. Because I just, you know, it's so easy to get frustrated because you can't get a technique. And I was going to relate it to just same thing with this. You know those things she might feel bad or frustrated like I I turn not knowing not being good at a certain Move and they said this is the hardest one to get and I Me getting mad. I get frustrated. I get mad that I don't want to do it and And it's all that ego stuff of being a beginner still. And then once I got out of my head, I just kept... But the feeling that people are going to be looking at me, I'm like, no one's... They're focused on their own. They're lifting so much weight. They don't have a second to look at me. lifting not very much and doing it slowly. 00:43:46.640 --> 00:43:47.360 Yeah. 00:43:48.780 --> 00:44:03.960 But I like, do not start crying, Sabrina. Do not start crying. So... it's you know I didn't I did for a second I cried a little bit yeah but it 00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:22.820 felt so I'm gonna go again tomorrow well awesome I think that that's fantastic I can hear it it's making a difference you know it just seems like it's doing really good things for you so well done what kind of difference what 00:44:22.820 --> 00:44:24.100 do you hear 00:44:24.100 --> 00:44:51.920 I think it's one more... I think both you and I were at a point where I feel a lot in our life circumstance and just life feels like there are a lot of things not in our control. A lot of things happening and this feels like something... that you've... that you're attacking and you've got it, you know? 00:44:52.500 --> 00:44:57.620 Yeah, I think the big picture of this, the past, yeah, I think in overall... 00:44:57.620 --> 00:45:07.740 Like this feels like something in your life that you have... you are taking head on and feeling really empowered by that. 00:45:08.120 --> 00:45:19.680 Yeah, the whole... the eating healthy and the whole... I'm looking at my big wooden calendar thing that I made. I'm almost, we're almost at the three-month mark. 00:45:20.580 --> 00:45:23.120 Wow. So. 00:45:24.580 --> 00:45:33.300 But you're doing it. That's awesome. Oh, it's fantastic. Okay. So CrossFit. What about you this week? Okay. 00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:37.820 This week, I actually talked to Tracy from episode Quack It Out. 00:45:38.260 --> 00:45:38.760 Oh, yeah? 00:45:38.700 --> 00:47:28.940 I talked to Tracy yesterday about this class that I finished producing just right before I moved into the studio space. Yeah. And I talked to her about ways that I might be able to market it and get it online and make it available to people. Yeah. So that is going to be a big focus for me this week is feedback. I really would like to get it out there and not have it hidden away. So that's what I'm working towards. Is it going to be on Datalog? I don't know. That's kind of where I'm at right now is trying to figure out. So when I made it, I made it with the idea that I would market it to colleges. It's a college course, a design fundamentals course. Okay. And that, so I've been doing that. I spent, you know, a good year approaching different schools, trying to get a sense for who I might be able to market it to. But all of them liked the videos that I made, this content. But I could tell after I spoke with these people that they had... there just was no way for them to figure out how to take my stuff that I made outside of their system and fit it into their system right like there's so much bureaucracy in place to approve things and own things and you know who gets to you know like licensed contractors and all just all the BS that has to go on there and I could tell that they just had no way to try to take license what I was doing. So that's why recently I've kind of just finally, I think I'm to a point where I'm ready to let that go and try just producing it myself. 00:47:29.080 --> 00:47:31.980 Yeah. Could it be an online course that people buy? 00:47:32.680 --> 00:48:07.080 Yep. That's the idea is it will be, there are several different platforms. I'm trying to decide which one is the right one. kind of the right tone. Like the Skillshare is one that a lot of people are familiar with, but I don't know that it's quite the right thing for what I wanna do. So there's another one called Rizuku that Tracy turned me on to that I'm gonna, I've got a meeting with one of their people to talk about. And these are platforms that are meant for classes. So it gives you a way to interact with students. It gives students a way to sign up and all these things. 00:48:07.080 --> 00:48:35.040 So because I was thinking that this along the same line, someone said – someone posted something about that saying, I wish you'd offer – classes online and I think I wasn't up for that about a year ago when I kind of started thinking a little bit about that but I think by next summer I would be ready to start filming something like that and this is something that that 00:48:35.040 --> 00:49:07.800 Tracy I talked about is that ultimately my goal is and what I would love to have happen and what I've been thinking about all along is that I'd like there to be a synergy, a relationship between what happens online and then what happens here in the studio. So people could just do the online thing, but there would also be the option to have them do the online thing and then come here to the studio and have, like continue the, - Yeah. - What's going on, you know, and the process, so. 00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:09.800 That's exciting. 00:49:09.800 --> 00:50:57.840 And what I was going to say in relation to you though is that we've talked about doing some kind of experience or residency or something like that. And that might be a way to start developing a community of people that around that is by offering a even a mini course that would prepare people for a residency or an experience of some kind oh yeah or at least start to build up a group that would would be interested in parlaying that experience into like a real life you know, the experience where they go somewhere and do something. So that's something to think about. Anyway. Awesome. So that's the, that's on, that's for this next week. All right. Gotta go. Take care. And that's it for today. Thank you so much for joining us. And we really want to hear what you guys think about this stuff. This conversation especially was really a time that we were trying to work through some things. So we would love to hear what you have to say too. In the show notes this week, I'll put a way for you to submit your ideas or your thoughts. And also tell us what you're up to while you're listening to this episode. Take a look at the website, roomthetrees.com. you can find a link to iTunes where you can leave us a review at roominthetrees.com backslash iTunes. And if you would like to show us your support, we would appreciate your patronage at patreon.com backslash room. Music for this episode was provided by my brother, Brent. Join us next week for episode, special episode number 20. And this week, you don't know what you're doing, and that's okay. 00:50:58.500 --> 00:51:01.500 ♪ ♪