Trenton ReynoldsIt is Tuesday, August 16th, 2016. This is Room in the Trees, a podcast about knowing and not knowing and being comfortable with both. We are all about creativity and creating here, and glad you're here too. The following was recorded on July 21st, 2016. This is episode number 16, Know This, part one. Room in the Trees is hosted by Sabrina Harrison and me, Trent Reynolds. Show notes including pictures, links, video, and more for every episode. can be found at roominthetrees.com. If you're enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to rate us on iTunes, which you can get to by going to roominthetrees.com backslash iTunes. And if you cannot wait to show monetary support, you can rush to patreon.com backslash room to subscribe and get additional content. We really, really appreciate all your support. Now today, I'm just going to be straight with you here. Irma, I'm talking to you. You issued a challenge to both of us, maybe even a little more to Sabrina, but I'm pretty much the only one who gets into it in this episode, which is why this is part one. Next week, you will get part two, where Sabrina gets into what she knows. Just wanted to set expectations here. You're about to hear some Trent talk. And now episode 16. Why don't you say what you did today and how you got the idea?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonSo we record our podcast every Thursday afternoon. And we kind of like to combine having people, conversations with other people, then sometimes just bring it back and having kind of a subject or a quote that we want to discuss. And so today I was this morning thinking about what we were going to talk about today and I thought let's just see if someone, anyone has some thoughts and ideas. So I put it out on Facebook and Instagram and we got some really cool ideas. And one of the ones was from Irma Paradine. Have all the questions been answered? Has some of the angst stayed? What do you know now?
Trenton Reynolds- So do you know of the Oprah thing that she's talking about?
Sabrina Ward Harrison- For a second I couldn't remember it, but I now remember it. She, in her magazine, it's always the last page of her magazine. She has a one-page essay she writes about for that month's theme. somehow fits with it. So usually something personal that she's encountered and something she's learned, which of course I wish I had looked up and read one again because I thought, well, what do I actually really know for sure? Just about nothing.
Trenton ReynoldsSo I read that when you sent that, you sent a screen grab of these different ideas that were suggested. And by the way, there were a lot of great ideas in addition to this one. But that one I responded to immediately because I think it's important. I think it's important to be very definite in... in establishing and telling people what you know, what you believe. Because I think, I don't know, it's so tempting in this kind of PC climate that we've created for ourselves to always be kind of half in, half out of everything. because we're afraid of offending somebody or we're afraid of saying, well, I believe this and it being exclusive somehow. You know, that other people might be offended by what we believe.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonOr we might change our mind, like this we know now and it's...
Trenton ReynoldsRight Well yeah, like you would say something very definitive and then maybe you'd change two years later but because you wrote it on Facebook somebody's going to cut and paste that and say, hey, you said this and you're a hypocrite because we change Yeah, I think we have this, I don't know, hesitancy to be, to say strongly what we believe. So anyway, I thought that was fun.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt's kind of exciting, like, with the freedom of growing and changing and experiencing. That's what I kind of, because I started, you know, self-questioning myself, like, well, do I really, like, shut up and just, just... Just say it. Just come on.
Trenton ReynoldsWell, I think it's interesting, too. And I imagine that the person who wrote this obviously has read your books and has perhaps specific things in mind that she read that she would be curious to hear your answers to. Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd I don't have any of my books here. So I'm curious if she could.
Trenton ReynoldsI think we should say out front that it ought to be obvious that angst remains, right? Yeah. That certainly has not been ironed out in the course of the intervening years, right?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd angst is a weird word because I don't think I even feel like I relate to the word angst. angst personally because it's such an onomatopoeia to me it's like angst like like it doesn't fit or kind of i'm tightly wound about something or right
Trenton Reynoldsdo you find i i don't know i i i think uh the way it's meant is not necessarily angst in oh i know and like a teenage like and i hate everything type of you know Spirit, I think. But I think that the personality, it's a personality trait, like, to a certain degree, you know, I think both you and I, and anybody that questions deeply their themselves and their place in the world is going to come across differently. angst, I don't know. Maybe angst is a great word.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAngst definition is a feeling of dread, anxiety, or anguish.
Trenton ReynoldsYes, well, we should have read that first because that is definitely the right word.
Don't you think?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI think I've had more of it recently than when I look back, I'm like, you are fine compared...
which is
Sabrina Ward Harrisonbut I think well what do you yeah I don't think I I don't relate to the feeling I think I felt dread
Trenton Reynoldsanxiety
Sabrina Ward Harrisonif you feel do you feel dread on a regular basis
Trenton Reynoldsyeah yeah I think so yeah yeah I think those, I think those, those feelings are, you know, pretty accurate to my life experience. What do you think Serena?
Um,
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI think worry. Isolation. I don't think... financially I felt
Trenton Reynoldssorry I should stop but well in all seriousness let me say this because it just came to my mind and I don't want to forget it a mentor of mine a good friend used to teach at art center and is a friend of both Laura and mine um I was talking to him one time and he said something to the effect of artists by definition don't know what they're doing.
Oh, that's great.
Trenton ReynoldsAnd it's true. He said, by definition, don't know what they're doing. They're trying to make something that's never existed before.
And...
Trenton ReynoldsAnd that really resonated to me because I was talking about my family and coming from, you know, my dad's a doctor. I have two brothers that are doctors. And, you know, it's a very different worldview and mindset. Anyway, when you said that, it like was an aha moment for me. And with that, you can't help it. And this is what we were talking about earlier. oh, a couple weeks ago, not this last episode, but the one before, where you were talking about not having role models and how it's just hard to be doing something that's to create. It's inherently an isolating... experience when you're trying to do something or bring something into the world that's never existed. I think you can't help but run into those feelings when you're a creative person.
Anyway, go ahead.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWell, let's transition into what, so what do you know? What do you... What do you know?
Trenton Reynolds- There've been some pivotal experiences in my life that inform my worldview. And I kinda, that's what I wanted to do is I wanted to share three specific experiences slash ideas that are kind of at the foundation of what I know. - Okay. - So does that sound okay? And then-- - Yes. So number one comes from a book that I've referred to in the past in this very podcast, and that is The War of Art. I've got to get that book. Yeah, you've got to get that book. It's fantastic. It's a really short book and fantastic. read. So one of the things that he talks about, this is James Pressfield, author of The Legend of Bagger Vance, which I have not read. And I don't think I've read any of his other books besides this one and a sequel to this book. So in The War of Art, Stephen Pressfield talks about how in America, or, you know, for a lot of us growing up in America, we've been told over and over again that we can be whatever we want. that you can grow up to be the President of the United States or fill in the blank, you can be whatever you want. And his contention is, in the book is, and what really resonated with me, is that we ought to be telling our children and communicating that, they can't be whatever they want. They can only be what they're meant to be. Like they have a work to do. And it's, I think, you know, if you wanted to quibble about it, maybe the intention of both are similar or the same, but But I think it's two very different ways of looking at it. And I think it's an important shift in perspective. And this is something that I believe to my core. And that is every human being has a unique set of abilities and a unique potential. And they have a work that they're meant to do in this life. and um beautifully said true the closer you get to finding that uh that work and being on that path that is uniquely yours the more satisfied and at harmony i think you will be so I believe that
Sabrina Ward Harrisonisn't it so it's so peaceful to hear that said out loud I think we need to have that on one of those buttons does that whole segment because it's the best gift as a parent to to really instill that.
Trenton Reynolds- To me, like when I look at my daughter Liv, I can't talk about my kids or I get all weepy. I can feel it already. But that affects how I think about my role as a parent is I'm not looking at my daughter Liv and thinking, oh, she could be anything in the world. She could be the president of the United States or whatever. That's me kind of, imposing this, you know, this ideal on her, imposing my visions instead of me looking at her and trying to find indications or clues in her behavior and the things that she spends her time thinking about and talking about. ways, clues that I can take and then try to foster and encourage and help her find the path that she's supposed to find, you know, instead of me thinking these grandiose visions and trying to kind of encourage her to do these, you know, these these all kind of these dreamy things, you know, and the focus is on her and her potential and her core, you know, not something else. Anyway, I think it's a significant difference in perspective.
Sabrina Ward Harrison- My thought is though, if you know that to be true, there's a whole lot of time in life when you're kind of resistant to that truth.
Would you say?
Trenton ReynoldsAbsolutely. And I think it is definitely the case that we are blind to things that are the most obvious. because they feel so normal and everyday to us. Yes, yes, yes. I do believe, just like I believe the answer is in Liv, my daughter, for what her path is, I believe that the answer is right here sitting in this chair about what I'm supposed to be doing. You know, it's... It's not out there in some self-help book. It's not. I mean, those things can spur ideas and help you find things that resonate. But the answer is right in front of me. It's right here.
Yeah. What's the answer?
Trenton ReynoldsAnd I think that's a big deal. And that is a source of a lot of anxiety and angst, all those feelings. Is that I believe that, but it is so invisible to me. It's right in front of my nose. I know it's there, but I have no idea. Yeah. what, uh, what it is. Well, that's, that's not entirely true. That's an exaggeration, but I think that is, that's, that's where the anxiety comes from is like, I know it's there,
Sabrina Ward Harrisonbut I'm not sure. Well, it's almost like you're the other deeper mind and it's like your soul knows and you know, your soul knows. And so that, that other voice in your, Again, going back to getting really quiet, like we know, we know.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBut in English language, it's hard to know sometimes. Okay, what's another one?
Trenton ReynoldsWell, it's your turn. What do you know?
Okay.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI thought you were going to do all three.
No, well...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI wasn't ready for that. I thought I was going to hear your three.
Trenton ReynoldsOkay. Well, I'm just afraid that I'm going to talk too much and run out of time.
Okay, well, I can...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI could do a private recording by myself.
Trenton ReynoldsAll right. Well, I'm going to shoot these out. Whatever. I'll try to be brief. No, no.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI don't think brief is effective sometimes in the podcast, so we can maybe just do like I think when you talk suddenly talk faster and you are pushing them out all right well
Trenton ReynoldsI'll try to just be right in front of okay I'm present I'm here okay so there's a book uh that I don't know if I've mentioned here but I I bring up a lot and these are all three of these things are things that I constantly refer to in classes to students because they so much inform my sense of self. There's a book called A Giacometti Portrait by the author James Lord. Giacometti, if you don't know, is a famous painter and sculptor, probably more famous for his sculpture. that is associated with the Surrealists. And just a really interesting character, kind of a recluse. And James Lord was kind of, was in social circles with all of these really famous artists like Picasso and Giacometti. and many others, and he wrote several books about these famous artists. Anyway, it's a little book about James Lord's experience sitting for Giacometti, sitting for a portrait by Giacometti. And essentially he just goes day by day recording his experience sitting for this portrait. And it's incredible. And it's kind of hard to read because so much of the book is Giacometti's negative self-talk. And it's him just going on and on and on about how he's horrible and he should just quit right now because he's never going to get it right. And he just messed up and he had it, but then it slipped away. And like all of this, this totally melodramatic, like, drivel. I can't find the quote. I was trying to find the exact quote because I wanted to read it for everyone. I did want to read part of it here real quick. All right. Later, he said, "If only I could find someone to do this in my place." And when I didn't answer, he added, "The way I want it." Laughing, I said, "That's not much to ask." He laughed too. "If I could find someone else," he said, "to do it exactly the way I want it, then I'd be able to stop forever." "But would you be satisfied to have it done by someone else, assuming, of course, you found someone to do it just the way you want it?" "I'd be delighted." After working a little while in silence, he suddenly said, The head isn't going well at all. It's lopsided now. Merd. Anyway, that's kind of a sense of this dialogue. He's just... But at some point in the book, in the quote that I can't find, James Lord asks him, "Well, why don't you just stop, since you're never going to be able to do what you want to achieve?" It's like this helpless cause, you know, that's the kind of thing he was saying. And Giacometti says something to the effect of, similar to what I just read, like, he could never accomplish this thing that he was trying to do, but he's the only one that possibly could.
Yes.
Trenton ReynoldsSo, and that struck me, the reason that resonated with me is because it's this simultaneous self-deprecation, you know, this doubt, self-doubt and, you know, self-hate or whatever, you know, this feeling of helplessness, simultaneous with a feeling of just supreme ego, like I'm the only one that could do this. You know, and I don't know, that relates, that resonates with me because I feel this just negative self-talk all the time. But at the same time, I feel very strongly that I've got this thing that I'm trying to build and this vision that I have for my life and for what I would like to spend this time doing and creating that nobody else could do. I'm the only one that can do this.
Yeah. Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonThat, it's interesting because I had written down last night before I went to sleep, I had overheard the line yesterday. He's, so I changed it so it's speaking, "You're the only one that gets to live your life." like so it was they were talking about someone else and like his his choice and they said something like he's the only one that's living his life or something it's it's kind of just a deep question to think about like no one else is gonna live our life
Trenton ReynoldsI think that's a good way to take what I was saying from being something that's just about me and maybe just a larger statement about everybody. And that is that, you know, realize that nobody else knows how to be you better than you.
Right.
Trenton ReynoldsRight. And nobody else can tell you what it is to be you and what you're supposed to be doing with your life. And you might have no idea, and you might be like full of self-doubt and self-loathing for messing your life up or whatever. And that comes with the territory, right? Like that's just the difficulty of being a person and figuring this stuff out. But realize, and I believe this is true, that nobody knows how to live your life better than you. And you've got to own that.
It's so good.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI always remember something my mom said when I was making Spilling Open, and I thought, are they going to really make this journal? Like, is it going to be able to have any color in it? Is it going to be? And I thought, when are they going to just realize this is just... it's really ridiculous to do this for this girl. And she said, if the book is supposed to be in the world, it will be if it's now or 30 years from now. And I think we have to remember that with what we're, there's no race there.
Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsI feel like the person who asked this question to begin with this, the, the prompted this, this conversation, um, that this is my insecurity. I feel like they want to hear from you, Sabrina. I feel like, you know, the, they're asking, um, this question to you specifically. Can you talk a little bit about like, even though maybe you don't have your books on hand to read specific questions or, or things from your past, um, Have you arrived at some clarity at this point in your life or things that you've learned over the past years where you can say that you know?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWell, because I don't have my published journals here with me, but what I do have just my journals I've kept over the years and I don't tend to go back and read them. And so just today, what I've been doing is just kind of opening up and seeing what is on that page. And I don't even sometimes know what year it's from. And I opened just before we started recording today to... It's bizarre, and I'll post the picture in the show notes because it's a two-page, wide, widespread, and written kind of small is, this is what I love to do. Come into a moment, find the true living, and capture it. And it was just what I see in that is just a, that's what I know. And I love that I kind of just made note of that to myself right in that moment. This was written in when I began the True Living Project and when I... was living along the Central Coast. It's so... It's all the beginnings of... of this big knowing that I felt about what brings me to life, what I am here to... in a deep way experience in the world and be a part of in the world. So that window of my life was when I felt the first, one of the first times of truly deeply, deeply engaged in my life and in my, the path of my life on a really deep, in, individual level of, um, and the, then when we just took a break for a few minutes, I opened to another page and I, I wish I had posted it said, oh yeah, here it is. And I'll take a picture of this too. And I just love it. It just says, I feel my flight. And I kind of love that idea too in our life. Like what it goes back to what we started talking about at the beginning today about you saying, like I feel my... I think both of us are right now beginning to feel a little bit of flight under our wings a little bit. And that again goes back to like following a child's curiosity is... when are those moments that you feel your flight? And birds don't get up into flight and go, I forgot something. Or like, no, no, no, shouldn't fly today. No, I don't think, I can't fly, you know?
Trenton ReynoldsThat's a really great image, like just mental image.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonGood conversation.
Yep.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt's a good conversation to keep circling back to. and one of the, one thing in the future, people are curious about something specifically in a journal page. I always love talking also about the creative process of different pages. Like, I'm like, I remember finding that random piece of paper under this tire truck. So stories about, um,
Trenton ReynoldsThat might be an interesting segment, in all sincerity. I would be curious to just have you take a page from one of your books and dissect it a little bit. Tell the different stories of all the pieces that came together.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonOh, I love doing that. I do that in my workshops. I love doing that. Because I kind of forget about it, but when I visualize it, I'm like, I remember that little tiny piece of this. thing so people can take a pic yeah people could take a picture of a page and we could always
Trenton Reynoldsthat might be a just a good regular thing too to that you could just do small snippets and post to patreon too yes yes because i can do them by myself
right
Trenton ReynoldsAll right, well, fantastic. I feel like I talked too much. Stop it.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonNo, I think it was great.
Trenton ReynoldsCan I ask you a totally unrelated question?
Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsWhat are your feelings, or do you have any strong feelings, about people calling you buddy, pal, chief, or boss? Do you ever get that? Probably not. Maybe women don't get that.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI want to be called boss. Can you go? Like you go to a store. Like in what context? Okay.
Trenton ReynoldsYou go to a restaurant and you order something, I don't know, like fast food especially or like 7-Eleven and... and they give you your food and say, "Thanks, boss," or "Hey, buddy." Is that happening to you? It happens regularly enough that it kind of drives me a little crazy. Really? For some reason, it really bothers me when people call me buddy, boss, chief, or pal. There are some people that are close friends. I'll call a friend amigo sometimes. Like, hey, amigo.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonThat's so stupid in the context. It sounds normal in California, but you sound so white saying that. Sometimes I just say to a friend, hey, amigo.
Like...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt's out of context, but yeah. Like in Madison, you don't say, hey, Miko.
Trenton ReynoldsOh, that's maybe... Yeah, anyway. Totally white. Very, very, very white.
Yeah, like...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, I think I noticed... I noticed this actually yesterday in a grocery store. Like, I have a little funny thing about if someone... Men, like, if they're in my way and they say... sorry, miss, but if someone says, sorry, ma'am, I'm like, excuse me.
I'm not a ma'am.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYou know, like, I feel like it's very...
Trenton ReynoldsWait, so there's ma'am, is there anything else? Like, what about lady? Do you get called, or would that bother you if somebody said, called you a lady?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWell, like, if they said...
you're a lady.
Trenton ReynoldsOr this is my lady friend. Or hey lady.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI think hey lady. It's all in the context of it. It's like hey lady. I don't like. But if someone's like she's such a lovely lady.
Trenton ReynoldsWhat about babe? Like if somebody said hey babe.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonThat's great.
That'd be fine.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBut I don't think that's
or chick
Sabrina Ward Harrisonno no well it's all really no I don't like chick but um it is it is interesting where I feel like uh tells whether you're like I don't know like you don't really seem like a sir
Trenton Reynoldswell just don't call me anything just say hey or man I'm okay with man hey man here's your food yeah sir is okay you know that's kind of I don't know but boss chief and pal just please please don't call me those things
Sabrina Ward Harrisonafter listening and you can subscribe at patreon.com forward slash room thank you to brett reynolds for the music we so appreciate it and next episode i will be telling you more about what i know and what i don't know and what i want to know and I'm working on some t-shirts for Ruin the Trees. I'm going to be silk screening some stuff this week, and you can find out more on our website, RuinTheTrees.com. I hope you all are well, and thank you so much for listening. It's a great conversation.