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Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt is Tuesday, July 12th. This is Room in the Trees, a podcast about, well, forging your own authentic path. The following conversation was recorded on June 23, 2016, in an art studio in Santa Monica. And with attempts to get better audio, I recorded it in a tiny closet in Madison. This is episode 12. Just do it. Room in the Trees is hosted by Trent Reynolds and me, Sabrina Harrison. Show notes including pictures, links, video, and more for every episode can be found at roominthetrees.com. your iTunes reviews and comments on the website rock our world keep them coming folks Leanne, Michelle, and Cassandra you guys, thank you I feel excited about this episode it's the most candid I've been publicly in many years after listening to it yesterday I exhaled liberation I hope you do too and now, from the closet it's sort of like a coin to Narnia when I go into the closet here, but it's no snowy side on the other side of this.
It's just...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt's just a little bit dusty and a bit awkward.
Trenton ReynoldsIt's Narnia without the magic.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah. Yeah. Who knows what I'll find while I'm in here.
Okay. Okay. Hi, Trent.
Trenton ReynoldsHi. Should we talk about this quote?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah. Let's do it.
Trenton ReynoldsOkay. So just in thinking about this conversation with your dad has been what the episodes we've released for the past two weeks. So that's on my mind and responses to that have been coming in this past week. That is why this quote in particular jumped out at me. Let me tell you what the quote is. It's from, once again, this is the second quote that we're using from the book "Art and Fear," which is a book that I like a lot and has a lot of really great thoughts about art. So this is "Art and Fear" by David Bayliss and Ted Orland. Page 22. And it says, "Fears about art making fall into two families: fears about yourself and fears about your reception by others. In a general way, fears about yourself prevent you from doing your best work, while fears about your reception by others prevent you from doing your own work. Both families surface in many forms, some of which you may find all too familiar." So fears about yourself prevent you from doing your best work, while fears about your reception by others prevent you from doing your own work.
That's deep.
Trenton ReynoldsYeah, I thought that was really good. Yeah. And we talked a little bit about comparing comparisons. in our conversation with your dad, and that would fall under maybe the family of fear of your reception by others. But I wanted to ask you, well, let's talk about those two things individually, fear of yourself and... and fear of your reception by others. Well, maybe let's talk about just fears about yourself. Fears about yourself prevent you from doing your best work. So I'm trying to think of the kinds of fears that I have about myself, and I think they have to do with... like insecurities. Well, sometimes it's hard to distinguish between what's a fear about myself and fear of my reception. Because say I have a fear that I'm not smart enough, that's also tied into a fear about how I'm going to be received, right? because it's a comparison that I'm making to...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBut isn't it interesting about how, yeah, but somehow that quote, it feels so distilled into making sense as the two, isn't it?
Interesting that way? Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBut then when you go to try to name that...
Trenton ReynoldsI think fear, like the fear that I have about myself is that I don't have anything interesting to say. And I don't, you know what I have a hard time with is, uh, there are some, some friends and relatives in my life that are, that are artists as well. And I look at them friends from my graduate program and from just art education throughout the years, where their artwork is so clear and they're able to focus on a specific technique or a specific kind of making that they just lock in on and they're so confident about, or if they're not confident about, they at least have committed to it. And it's like there's no, they don't have to make that decision over and over again, whereas I feel like I'm constantly having to make the decision of what I'm gonna do. - Yeah. - And I don't know, I don't understand how that happens, where the people are able to find the thing they do, you know, like, this is my thing isn't that weird
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI just is that I know isn't that I just I'm kind of blown away that people and not even just as artists but people that like this is my skill set I mean whether we are projecting that onto them that that's how they feel and that's what they know to be true we have no idea we have no idea what their inner life is like
Trenton ReynoldsWe have no idea what their inner life is like, but what baffles me is the production, is what I see them actually doing. So they're going into their studio every day. There's a friend of mine, Todd Chilton, we were in grad school together, fantastic painter, and he does these wonderful abstractions, and... and he just goes into the studio, and he cranks out these, you know, just very prolific, cranks out these beautiful abstractions. You can see how they relate to each other, and they're a development of, you know, similar types of line of thought. But I don't know how he, like... How can he just go in there and keep plugging away at this... I don't know. When I try to say it out loud, it sounds kind of stupid.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonHave you ever talked... It'd be interesting to talk to him about it.
Yeah, it would be.
Trenton ReynoldsAnd I guess... I don't know. I think some people just have the personality to fixate on something. Like, this is... it's meditative almost. Like they find something that really is compelling to them and they fixate on it and they just keep on kind of scratching at that itch. But I think that's part of my difficulty is, and we just talked about how I kind of see myself as a dabbler is I kind of get disinterested really quickly and want to try something new.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd that's what I think is the, that's where I think I relate to you that way about that part of it because I think that's where personality types, like I think there's the engineering type. You know, there's a person that's, you know, thinking about a wood, a woodworker, a cabinet maker or an instrument, you know. um, someone who gets, it's like a trade skill, would you say? Like a, something that, um, we're all made differently. And so going with, like, I'm never going to be someone that's really good at something. I'm just not, I'm not going to be good. I've never been really good at anything.
Hmm. Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsWell, what does that mean? Like really good at a skill?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWell, that's what I think I always felt weird about in a little bit of... I've always felt weird about this. Maybe I've talked about this with you maybe years ago. But that adjustment... Because you knew me in high school. I wasn't... We grew up around people that were excellent. People that excelled in... scholastic, scholastically and, you know, were good basketball players or, you know, there's a lot of... And I didn't have that... There was no need for me to I don't have that need to prove anything. Like, I just... Right. I don't have... I want to pass. I mean, I just barely made it through algebra. I don't even know if I actually made it through algebra, but... And then to be at a young age to kind of put out a lot of stuff about my flaws, about everything I wasn't good at, everything I felt uncomfortable about and scared about and insecure about, and then sort of to be recognized for that felt completely counterintuitive to me. the natural progression of my personality, my character, and it's always felt really wonky that way because...
Hmm.
Trenton ReynoldsSay that again. I'm not sure... Can you say that one more time? The part about how... The thing that you saw as a fault or as a weakness became what you were celebrated for? Is that what you're saying? And that always felt a little wonky?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWell, it felt wonky because when it goes into the world, then the object of... you know, what came from that expression was something that was sort of officially looked at as a marker of success. And it happened...
And it...
Trenton ReynoldsI think that's an interesting idea and this I don't know I see this happening a lot in my own life where those and this is also based on this thing I read in grad school chapter from the book The Unbearable Lightness of Being where it talks about like When two polar opposites get so close to each other that it's like disorienting. And in this case where something that you saw was as failure became what was seen as your success, you know, where those two extremes came together and became the same thing, how that's just really disorienting. And it's hard to make sense of that, you know.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward Harrisonthat's... And I never felt... It's... You know, I look back and I wonder what my life would have been like without that. Ever happening. I think I would be... I think I might own a house. I might... I mean... I wonder about people... That's what I also am interested in, is people that, say, have been inspired by my books and have done similar things, but have a different personality type. It's like, I've got this, I'm organized, I'm creative, and I want to do this, and I want to make money. And I'm not apologetic for what I'm doing.
Right. And...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI think I felt kind of apologetic. I don't know if that's the right word, but... I felt apologetic for...
Uh...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI fell for a lot of things. Because I... Okay, one way is also, like, I wasn't built... You know, people that are really, you know, social people are people that go out and be like, I want to be the Rose Queen or something, or, like, the Rose Parade, or I want to graduate from... I can't think of the right thing, you know, become a lawyer, have a big goal and achieve it. That takes a certain kind of fortitude of, they're built for the accolades that come with that. they didn't stumble upon it. Like, they trained, they learned, they studied, they achieved it, they owned what they worked for.
Mm-hmm.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd they were really proud of it. And I think I haven't...
Mm-hmm.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, I haven't done that. But one day I'm going to build a barn. It's going to be the True Living Project. It's going to be a place, and that's what I want. That's what I want, and I'll feel really proud of it because I will... And not that I didn't work for it, but it just was... It was a different time and it was a different... It was just different.
Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsYeah, your journey to get there was... Was different than where people were at when they received that. I don't know if that's not what you're saying.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah.
Well...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonRight. But we don't have to use that part. But, you know, there's people that knew what they wanted to do and think about people that were like, I'm going... You know, people that we went to high school with are maybe, you know, 20... They've been lawyers for 20 years now already.
Mm-hmm. And...
Sabrina Ward Harrisoncould they change? Could they decide to just dabble around? Not to... Not to... I mean, that's not really a good example of... Like, you know what? I just need to shake it out for a second. I'm going to... Right? It's a lot of big thinking. We have a lot... There's a lot of thinking about this.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonDid you, when you graduated high school...
Did you ever say...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI don't know. Did you ever go... Did you have a moment in college or in high school or in graduate school where you're like, where a teacher or a class really brought you alive? Just go, I want this. I want to do this. This speaks to me. I got this is, this is, this is, I see my voice in this.
Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsI remember feeling like thrilled, I guess is the word that's coming to mind right now, two times that's coming to mind right now. One was I took a class in Photoshop and how to learn Photoshop at Art Center in Pasadena. So I was either a junior or senior in high school and it was a college level night class. And I went there the first day, and I was totally out of my depth. Like, I had no idea what was going on, and I remember just my head was reeling with all the information and the new stuff and walking around the halls of Art Center and seeing all the artwork there. And I just felt so invigorated and challenged and inspired by all the work that I saw in the display cases. So I remember that being...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd what about it? What was the work? When you close your eyes and think about that, what was it about that work?
Trenton ReynoldsI think it was just so skilled, so technically proficient. I remember a lot of it was just product design or figure paintings. You know, like not anything... super imaginative or inspiring in those ways, but it was so well done that that was really exciting to me. To think that these were like college-age kids, you know, were able to do something to that level of skill. Anyway, go ahead.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt's interesting because my exactly the same kind of thing was, I remember being in high school and I remember one day we'll talk about Mila and her sending me up to CCAC, now CCA, California College of the Arts, in the Bay Area and my dad and my mom and I went up there and I remember I could just see it like it's yesterday and I was, guess I was a senior. And we walked in. I even remember the artist. I don't remember her whole name, but it was Gabby something, or her last name was Gabby or something. Gabby. But this it was graphic design, and it was combining words and imagery.
And
Sabrina Ward HarrisonMy dad just said, "That's what you do, Sprout." He calls me Sprout. You know, "That's... that's you." And I just felt it in my core. I'm like, for the first time ever in my kind of teenage, early, you know, years of thinking about my life and the course of my life, I knew, I'm like, "I want to do this. I can do this. I'm gonna..." and I can be good at it. And I'm excited by it. I'm excited by evoking emotion through words and imagery. And I remember very clearly, and I always felt this all through art school, I was a designer before I was an artist. I was absolutely more interested in the message and reaching a broad, big audience, um... to evoke a message, to tell a story. I mean, those were the years of the great Nike just do it ads with like, you're not your mother's daughter. You know, there's some of the great photography and text.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward Harrisonbut so I just, I went, I went crazy for graphic design. I wouldn't, and photography.
Trenton ReynoldsAnd do you think that has not been as developed as you want it to be? Like are you, Are you wanting to get back to that excitement or that inspiration?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWell, I always, yeah, because I like, the things I liked about it was I like the deadline quality of it. I like that you worked with, you were doing something and solving a problem. And we always had sort of a weak turnaround. You know, like we had to design a logo for the San Francisco Public Library. You had to design a poster to encourage people to read. We had to design, and I just, I got, I was so, I was on fire with that. I, I, and I, I planned, that's what I kind of envisioned my life being, was being a part of a team, um,
and just,
Sabrina Ward Harrisonjust doing that. I did. I, I never took a painting class. I never, I, I never tried to be, I, I, I was very aware. I didn't know how to draw and I never even tried to really learn how to draw. And I don't really want to draw.
Um, um,
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, I do think I got sidetracked. And I think I would love to do that kind of work.
Trenton ReynoldsI think that's an interesting point you just bring up there, is that, you know, people... I have students come into, say, a painting class, And they feel like, you know, well, I don't know how to draw, so I can't take a painting class yet because I can't draw yet. But they're not interested in learning to draw. What they really want to do is paint, right? Yeah. But there's this kind of false expectation or assumption that, you know, you have to... develop... Like, to be a real artist, I have to know how to move a pencil around, right?
Right.
Trenton ReynoldsOr to be a real artist, fill in the blank. You know, I have to draw a certain kind of painting, or I have to achieve... You know, whenever... I can't tell you how many times I've heard this. Like, when people bring up Picasso... they talk about what a great mind and innovator he was, but there's like somebody always has to bring up, oh, well, he was actually a really good, really knew how to draw, he really knew how to paint before he got into his work in abstraction. He was very skilled as a, you know, in representation. As if, you know, he had to have that background. Well, you know, maybe that was part of what made him who he was, for sure, but it's not like that's a prerequisite to, you know... Anyway, I don't know. I think it's interesting how we develop these notions of what we have to do when this really has nothing to do where we want to end up, if that makes sense.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt does. And to further that, to talk to you about which, when you say about helping people find their voice, it's, what I appreciated about CCAC was that you had the humanities classes and the, the ultimately to be an artist, to be a meaningful artist and understand and find your voice. You have to understand the world around you and look closely and understand yourself in context with, it's not about drawing the seashell or painting the seashell. It's, it's, getting connected to your voice the way you see the world the way you are taking the world in and reflecting that back out mhm
yeah
Sabrina Ward Harrisonthrough the physical act of making. And that shape and the tools for that are far and wide.
Mm-hmm.
Trenton ReynoldsI wonder if you've had this experience, but another thing that comes to mind is I've seen people who... maybe they've been painting with watercolor for years and they've never had the desire to try something else, you know, another medium. But for whatever reason, you know, maybe it's the only class that was available. So they show up at an oil painting class or an acrylic painting class, and they try this new medium and all of a sudden just something clicks and makes sense about the material. Like it, it resonates with them somehow and opens up a whole, you know, level of possibility that they didn't see before. And I'm looking at this quote about, you know, fears about yourself prevent you from doing your best work. Like, like... I think fears about trying new things, fears about, or like, assumptions or expectations of what has to be and fears of deviating from what you feel like, you know, a real artist does or that you have to do to be, you know. All this noise that I think can get into finding what, you know, our place is and what the right vehicle is. you know, the right medium, the right setting, the right relationship, the right, you know, all of these things, I think, is based on these fears we have of branching out and trying something new. And I don't know, and that keeps us from our best work.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd that parlays into the second part of the quote about your own work. Not your best work, but your own work.
Right. Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd I think, and work can be in a broad sense, like that's what you're right now, it seems like you're questioning what your own work in this world, how to bring that forth.
Trenton ReynoldsAbsolutely. And I think that's, it's a moving target. I think it's, you know, just like you were talking about earlier, what brought you to the point where you had success with your first book? Well, you're a different person now, and what you have to say, your truth, you know, so much about your life is changed, and it's like you gotta reassess, and you gotta find, you have to take that journey anew. And I think the same thing for everybody.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd give yourself the permission to.
Absolutely.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBecause people around you, that goes into the reception part of it. That's huge, you know. It's so hard to do. It's so hard to do. There's a great, you know, that's what makes... and that's what not doing it. You don't have to do it and document it on Instagram every five minutes the way through,
you know?
Trenton ReynoldsRight. I think that's, that's kind of a unique, uh, situation brought up by social media and the convenience of, of, you know, our digital lives is that we are so aware and connected to others that that it's really hard not to let that creep too much into our decision-making about what we do and who we are. You know, our fear about how other people are going to perceive us dictates, you know, our creative decisions and how we run our lives.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd stops us from physically doing the... getting your hands into it, because your hand's on the phone and not in...
Right. The material.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonThat's one of the things that concerns me most about the kids growing up right now is the first instinct is to have the device before the experience. Yes.
Trenton ReynoldsAnd you do the experience almost as a way to document it. Oh my God, that's so true. You do the experience so you have something to do with your device. Shoot. Yeah, it's kind of a... putting the carriage before the horse or whatever.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI wonder there'll be, there'll be some change in that and just, uh,
Trenton ReynoldsI think so. I think we're already seeing it. I think, yeah. And it's, I think it's a natural progression. We're going to realize that there's a certain amount of, um, I don't know, like, social disease that grows up out of this. And we'll figure out ways to create artificial barriers and ways to protect ourselves from these tools that we've made and limit them and create space for ourselves to exist without having to make constant comparisons.
Well said.
Trenton ReynoldsSo do you feel, let me ask you this. Where do you think your biggest hang-ups are or biggest struggles are? Are they in fear of yourself or fear of other people or your reception by other people?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWell, I wrote this down while we were talking, and this is the voice I always hear. I don't know how to do it.
Trenton Reynoldslike that is so interesting because like that that is one of your biggest rallying cries is like just do it right it's like don't think about don't think about it doesn't matter that you don't know what you're doing just get your hands dirty right that's that's something that i think you're so good at that it's surprising to me that to hear that that's you know the demon voice yeah
Sabrina Ward Harrisonit is Like, I think I don't know how to write that email. I don't know how to tell the person, like, you really hurt me, you know, that really hurt my feelings. I never learned how to stand up. I never learned, I don't feel like I know how to really stand up for myself. And I don't know how to know, I don't know, I feel like I don't know how, just how to do it. Like, sometimes I just don't know how to do it. I don't know, and so I avoid it. I avoid it and avoid it, and that really becomes a problem. That's a real, real problem. I don't--I'm not... Conflict resolution, you know, just... I think one of the things I've... It's funny. I've also been reflecting a lot on the conversation with my dad that we had. And one of the things that comes up is, as much as the bravery of us moving to California from Canada... And my mom's an only child. My dad has one sister and she lives in England with Chaz But we never we didn't have cousins we didn't have I didn't have We had no we there's no like I'll just ask my cousin Stephanie about that or Jeff can come by and help me get you know, show me how to like my dad didn't have a toolbox and
Trenton ReynoldsWe don't have to publish that.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYou know, everyone has, like, that was not his thing. He was not like a, I'll fix that, you know.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonOr, you know, so everyone, he was decisively himself. He was really great at being a dad in some fantastic ways. But there's sometimes I feel like I don't really know. I don't know what, I don't know how to handle this.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI feel like for a lot of my years growing up, and I didn't feel like I chose this path. I didn't know who to follow or go. There was no...
Um...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonSo my... What really stops me is that...
Trenton ReynoldsAnd that continues to be something that you struggle with, right? Hey, thanks.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, Trent. Thanks for... I know. Exactly. It's so true. That's what I mean. It's completely...
Trenton ReynoldsWell, no. I think that's... I think, though, it's interesting that... That your success puts you in a situation where you're facing that same thing again, where you're breaking new ground and going in a direction where you don't have anybody to model after. And you know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsAnd that was the thing that brought you the success in the first place, is your ability to just do it even though you don't know what you're doing, even though you don't have somebody to ask how to do it. You know, you just did it. I don't know. So I don't know. I see this kind of virtuous cycle almost that... The thing that was your struggle is what brought you this tremendous strength that people responded to and that brought you to the place where you could create that book. Or than all of the books, and that's probably why. All the books. And that's probably why. That thing that you were able to create is what's perpetuating the same situation that you're trying to remedy. I don't know.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonExactly, exactly.
Trenton ReynoldsIt's a vicious and a virtuous cycle simultaneously.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd that's why that wonderful line by Frederick Buechner is, God calls us to the place where a deep... gladness and the world's deep hunger meet.
Trenton ReynoldsWhen you became that person to model after for so many people, right? That's what inspired people is it gave them somebody to look to as an example for a way to express something that was really deep and profound in their own lives. Like they didn't know how to do that until they saw how you did it.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonLike really, and I think my dad talking about failing, like just the idea that he went down and pitched and had to be, and he really was, he'd come home, he'd fail, but he was like completely like, let's go. I mean, not in a cheesy way, but he kept doing it. And I think I've got to face people getting mad at me, things not working, asking for something that I'm going to be told no to, uh, yeah. And being embarrassed, holding ourselves back, or being hesitant is not doing any favors to anybody.
Definitely.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI feel we had, it was choppy, but interesting and strong.
What do you think?
Trenton ReynoldsI think we've got some good stuff in there. I do too. And that's it for this week. Thanks for listening. It was another conversation where I felt like I learned a lot. and I want to thank Sabrina for being willing to have these conversations and for being willing to share so openly. You can find show notes for this episode at roominthetrees.com. You can support us by subscribing at patreon.com backslash room. Now, part of the conversation from this episode, 12 minutes or so, didn't quite belong with the rest of what we talked about, but we both thought it would be worth sharing. So we will be posting it on our patreon page as an extra for our patreon subscribers we really appreciate your support and if you have a moment it really helps us reach more people if you would rate us on itunes we are reading your reviews thank you so much for taking the time my brother brent provided the music for this podcast you can hear more of his music on soundcloud.com by searching for venters stag motel next week we we'll be talking to Daniel Franklin, who is a truly remarkable educator and artist, and who I am honored to call a friend. I hope you join us. Now, go do. And know you are loved.