Trenton ReynoldsIt is Friday, June 24th, 2016. This is Room in the Trees, a podcast about making artwork. making time, figuring stuff out, living life as a creative human being. The following was recorded on May 20th, 2016. This is episode number 10. Lucky number 10. Eat a pizza or something. Room in the Trees is hosted by Sabrina Ward-Harrison and me, Trent Reynolds. Show notes including pictures, links, video, and more. where every episode can be found at roominthetrees.com. Now you hear me say something each week about how you can support the show. There's one thing that is actually pretty easy to do and would help us out a lot, and that is rate us on iTunes. If you go into iTunes on your computer or mobile device, and do a search for Room in the Trees, you will find that we are the only podcast listed with that exact name. Click on our podcast and then click on the Rate and Review tab to write us a review and let us know how many stars we deserve. it's free and it doesn't take much time right now there are no visible ratings or reviews it would be fantastic if you would take a moment to change that today you will hear a conversation we had with Nicole Wong Forty who generously made time during her lunch break to talk to us about her experience being Sabrina's very first intern. Nicole worked for Sabrina while she was creating the art for her book, Messy Thrilling Life, the art of figuring out how to live. Nicole is a San Francisco artist and got an MFA in animation from UCLA. You can see some of her work at NicoleWong40.com. That is spelled N-I-C-H-O-L-E-W-O-N-G-F-O-R-T-I.com. And now, Nicole.
Fantastic.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonFantastic. Hi. That was annoying.
That's all right.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBut that's a great example of working with people where you just have to figure it out.
Nichole Wong FortiHow badly do you want to strangle me right now? I don't.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI want to give you a big hug and just laugh and eat some pizza or something. Oh, pizza sounds great. because I'll take a deep breath
okay
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI'm putting earphones on
Trenton Reynoldswe got tons of time it's only 1234 we can get some
good stories in
Nichole Wong Fortiyeah so where are you right now So I'm literally like in a small conference room at Old Navy corporate. I'm like running in and out with my cell phone and my laptop and I'm like locking the door. True that, girl. Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWhat kind of project were you working on this morning for them?
Nichole Wong FortiHelping with accessories for toddlers and newborns. Just drawing and doing print stuff and yeah, just stuff like that.
Trenton ReynoldsIs it a fun job?
Nichole Wong FortiIt is. It is fun. It's not as creative as just being able to like journal or draw or illustrate. it's still fun. It's still somewhat creative and, um, the people are cool. So.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonThat makes such a difference. Yeah, it does. As I was thinking about, um, our conversation, I was thinking really it's Trent and I both, you know, when you work individually as an artist, you don't have, you know, normal coworkers during the day. And so I've found my relationships and friendships with interns in my life have been so, um, I always said they would all be like my bridesmaids at my wedding or because, you know, just sharing the space and sharing time and sort of problem solving together is such a loss for so many artists. They don't have that. And it's so helps give the levity to stressful situations. this is a perfect example, like, no, it's not working. You just want to give up if you're alone. But with another person, you're like, we got this, we figured out, you know, so.
Nichole Wong FortiTotally, totally. I think it was like my first experience kind of understanding how that process kind of works and like how to work with someone closely and, you know, just kind of do all that stuff.
Trenton ReynoldsAnd then how did you meet up with Sabrina?
Nichole Wong FortiWhen did that happen? This was like a really stalkerish funny story, but my sister was working. She started her first job as an architecture in an architecture firm. And I was visiting her for lunch. It was totally, I feel like it was summertime or the end of summer. and I walk into the studio next door. It's a beautiful, airy studio full of artwork. And I wander in and I look at these awesome snowboards and I'm like, wait a minute, I totally know this artist. who stole all her artwork? Like, this is insane. This is all her stuff. And I like, she, the doors open. Sabrina's like not in the room. So I just like wander around. I don't know if I told you that, but I don't, I don't know this story at all. I totally just like looked cause I was like, so amazed that all your artwork was there and it didn't connect with me until you walked through the door that I was like, Oh shit, this is your studio. And I was like, Oh my God.
Um,
Nichole Wong FortiBecause the funny thing is I had read your journals like that summer. So my roommate in college, she totally introduced me, you know, to your writing and to your journals. And then I like stumbled into your studio, like visiting my sister. And I was like, I think you came in and I turned around and I was like, you're like, what are you doing? And I was like. Oh, I forgot that story. Yeah. So where did you see the snowboards? They were just like on the filing cabinets. They were just like placed against the wall.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonOh, so my door was open. Yeah, your door was open. You literally went inside. Yeah.
Oh!
Nichole Wong FortiThat sounds stalkerish as I'm saying it out loud. It's not. But no, no, it was totally kosher. I wasn't like doing anything shady.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBut that was a pretty, shout out to Ali, your twin sister. Oh, totally. their studio was next door in the but those yeah those spaces were it was a beautiful space
Trenton Reynoldsthe window was was this close to UCLA was this Westwood or this was somewhere else no it was
Nichole Wong Fortiin Berkeley yeah it was totally yeah six hours away up north yeah that was such so then so then what happened I forget. How did you... So then we started talking, and then at first you were like, what are you doing here? And I was like, I just saw your art pieces and I love them. And then we started talking, and then you were like, what are you doing for the rest of the summer? And I was like, nothing. And you're like, do you want to maybe stop by and help me and like be my intern? And I was like, yes, absolutely. So we like, I think I literally started that next week, you know, like it was like a Friday or something like that. And then the next week on the Monday, I stopped by and started working with you. It was like really surreal, right?
Yeah, but awesome.
Trenton ReynoldsSabrina, we've talked about your idea of how people would be introduced or find your work. Nicole, what was your experience like first time being introduced to the books? Was it something where your roommate said you got to take a look at this or did you kind of stumble on it on a bookshelf somewhere? How did that happen? Yeah.
Nichole Wong FortiIt was, yeah, absolutely like my roommate. We're really close in design school, and she was reading your journals, and she was like, you really have to check Sabrina's work out. She had just bought your books. And I was like, oh, cool. And I literally glanced at it, and then as I was flipping through it, I had to sit down and read all of the handwritten words and everything that you had written in them, and I was totally... like, drawn into everything. And also just, like, just really touched with how vulnerable all the words and all the, like, themes that you put into the book, your words. Yeah, that's how I, like, we first got introduced. I think I still remember, like, sitting in my apartment with my roommate, and she had one book and I had the other. or it was the, and then I was just sitting on my bed and I was just like reading it. And I thought it was just going to be like, I'm just going to skim these pages. And then it was just like an hour, two hours. Cause I was like reading every word, looking at all the, like, you know, the images of the tape and the illustration and yeah, it was really cool.
Trenton ReynoldsI'm curious, like how much, you know, we're in such different times in terms of consumption of media, like it's so easy to find a website and stuff like that. How much of that experience was the actual, like holding the physical book and turning pages and stuff? Was that part of the memory?
Nichole Wong FortiOh, that was so much a big, yeah, that was a big part of it because there was so much detail. I think when my roommate, Natalie introduced me to it, you know, I was like, I'll just flip through it. But then as I was, you know, flipping, I was like, there's so much rich detail that I had to like, look at everything on the page and turning the page too. I think the way you read the book really adds to your experience.
Sabrina Ward Harrisonwell that means so much that you say that because that's something people say oh it's just random and think there's no there's an underlining design structure and color palette and unfolding of that I love to kind of I love that process with you and having your, cause you have such a tasteful eye and it was beautiful.
Nichole Wong FortiThat was like one of my best experience, my best experiences ever. It was awesome just to see you kind of like, kind of work through your process and visually kind of what, you know, what inspired you. It's just, it was really cool.
Trenton ReynoldsWhat did you find surprising or unusual about the process that you hadn't, you know, seen before or considered before?
Nichole Wong FortiWell, I think when you look at the book, you kind of think that maybe she's doing everything on an eight and a half by 11 piece of paper or like, you know, something that's a little bit more, you know, tangible or small in your hands, but she's like, when we actually cut out the cardboards, they were like large pieces on the floor. And you were really, the way you're, you design things was that, you know, you, you looked at it and then you put it back in this kind of order, but it was like in design, but it was like old school in design because you laid everything out on the floor and you were able to like, see, um, how things kind of related and everything was like done with tape and, and, I don't, I mean, you had a computer and you had Photoshop, but you did everything like, you know, with your own media.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonNothing was, yeah, that's so interesting to remember even having, I don't even remember a computer in that. I mean, there must have been one, some stupid desktop, something rather, which is fine. But I never used a computer for the production. No. That's interesting.
Nichole Wong FortiYeah, and I didn't, I wasn't sure how you did that when I saw the book. But then when we were working together, I was like, wow.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonRemember that awesome color copier I had? Oh my gosh. Remember that? We just figured out that we could recopy stuff on top of itself. Remember we made that little collection of kind of like a promo. Yeah, that was so awesome.
Trenton ReynoldsWhat do you mean copy stuff?
What is that all about?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt was like back in the day of where it was so exciting to have a color printer that... Where you could put different pieces of paper through it. So we didn't put white paper through it. I had silkscreen paper and I would cut it up and then...
Oh my gosh.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah. And it was a copy and printer. That's the thing. Yeah. Right? We copy stuff. So we laid stuff on the copier. Yes. Yes.
Nichole Wong FortiAnd then, yeah. I think the cool thing about that too was that even though you were copying things, they were still like pasted and cut and painted on. Oh, yeah. You would like print it. And so you were like using it, but with your own hand and specifically like the way you, you know, do your art, which is like collage and paint. And it's, you know.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, I wasn't copying any... I wasn't copying like a brochure or something. We're just kind of creating something, a flat surface. So we put some... Like I remember this wedding... Like I love this wedding... Like stupid paper you put over a table. What's that called? Like sort of tissue paper wedding. Yeah, like the table... Tablecloth paper... So it had these... It was probably for a baby shower. It had these umbrellas. So pretty. It was old because I would find all stuff in the creative reuse center, remember? And I'd bring in... And so we'd lay that down. So it was just old textures and then...
Trenton ReynoldsSo Sabrina, how did your process change when you brought somebody else in? Did it change or was it?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, it really did. I think it was one of my first experiences. Nicole, were you my first intern? I think I was your first intern. Oh, girl. I totally didn't. Yes, of course you were. That's why I was like, do you want to? Oh, man. It really was fantastic because it gave me... I think we worked for, you know, three days a week, two to three days a week, right? Yeah.
From...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd it just kept me... The laughter was a real big part of it. And the creative... Having someone kind of witness to your deadlines and being aware that they're really... I don't know. We're both having the experience. And I feel like I wasn't going... It wasn't that you were working for me. It was more like I shared... It felt collaborative for sure. Yeah, it really felt collaborative. It really felt... I didn't feel like I was taking a view and I don't think...
Nichole Wong FortiNo, but I felt like I was absorbing so much, you know, like I was learning, like it was so interesting. Even, I mean, some of the technique and processes were really unstructured. Like you would paint and I would walk, you know, I would absorb the things that you've done, but the other parts were actually really structured. Like you were the first person to teach me to like, keep a schedule for yourself, make a monthly calendar. I remember us like rolling out the paper and like, you know, taping it to the walls and like really figuring out where the deadlines were. Um, and I still have an office calendar. Like you were like, just go to like office Depot and get like whatever calendar and write, you know, all your deadlines and make sure you're accountable for like all these dates. And I still have a calendar because you're the one who taught me how to do that for myself. So, um, I just, yeah, I learned so much about being your own business woman as well as being the artist, too. It's kind of, it goes hand in hand a little bit, you know?
Trenton ReynoldsIt's interesting to hear you say that because so much of our conversation recently has just been kind of feeling the frustration that, like, the business side of it is so foreign and feels, like, uncomfortable, uncomfortable. Is that fair to say, Sabrina? Do you feel like you're the mentor of business women?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWhy are you laughing, Nicole?
Nichole Wong FortiWell, I just think that you really made these business decisions from your gut. And I think... It's true. Well, I think it worked, though. It worked. Because you were speaking from a place... Even though you didn't have an MBA or all these... technical degrees, but it really worked for what you were doing. And I never felt like, um, you know, you did something that was maybe uncomfortable or made you feel like you were selling out or anything, you know? Yeah, that's true. Well, Sabrina, I think it's,
Trenton ReynoldsI think it's important to just acknowledge, like, like, I hope you're hearing what she's saying. Like you've, you've, you can do this. You've done this in the past and, Like, you're, I don't know, I feel like there's some remembering that that could happen that might lead you back to the right answer for where you're at right now in your life.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIntern, Nicole, do you want to come intern again? There it is. I'll see you next week. Yeah. Bring your kids, bring your husband. We'll make it work, Madison, Wisconsin. See you there. I wish, I wish.
Trenton ReynoldsNicole, how is that experience, do you feel like it's influenced or directly affected how you, your process now in terms of how you're working with, in your current job or how you work in your personal work or even your family?
Nichole Wong FortiYeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I kind of talked a little bit about it before about the structure and having, like, even though it seems like. it's the balance between the freedom to draw and really let yourself go creatively, but also have some boundaries for yourself in terms of like deadlines, um, talking and interfacing with clients. I think you really also taught me, like we did some shows at your studio and you would talk to the people that would come in, you know, potential at that point, they were like potential clients to buy your work. So it was really kind of like being you, but also in a way that kind of, is entrepreneurial, you know, and you're keeping that in the back of your mind. I mean, you're not, even though your books are very open and vulnerable, I feel like when you met, when people met you, you're still very serious and business-like in that sense. You know, like you still had to keep... um, a balance of the two things. So I thought that was really cool. And that's something I keep, um, that I take with me today. It's like when I'm working in my studio, I definitely have those structures of boundaries. Um, and I have to keep certain things professional with clients and you know, and then there's a structured time where I just do my art. And I remember you doing that a lot too. It's just like, okay, we're going to do all the like admin stuff in the beginning, you know, like let's figure out our day. And then you would just say, then the rest of the day is just like for creating and being inspired and like turning on the music and just painting.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonExactly. And not mixing the both together. That's why not if, if that had been at the time of Facebooking and texting. Oh my gosh. Would not have, we never would have like, we were, it was really clear. Like let's power through this and then let's drop in. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and go.
Nichole Wong FortiI think I, and a lot of the people that came to see your work, um, and also came to your studio sessions, were really in love with the fact that you were still doing handcrafted work and you were still collaging with your hand. I mean, it's so easy to collage with Photoshop now and do all those things, but you were really like... taking that into your own hands, you know? And I think people really resonated with the fact that you actually painted this, you know, and it seems weird to say now, but like that piece of tape wasn't like digital.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt was like a real piece of tape. And that's true because I think at that time, I think you had just graduated, right? Or you would just, yeah. And you were doing stuff on, on the computer.
Nichole Wong FortiTotally. Like everything was in the graphic design work. Yeah. It was totally a Photoshop or illustrator and, It was cool to go to the Mission and silkscreen work. Exactly. Oh, my gosh.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonMission Cultural Center was an amazing resource. Yeah.
It was awesome.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWhat happened there? Where was that? It was great in the Mission District in San Francisco, which is probably, hopefully, bless its heart, it's still there because everything has changed so much with gentrification. But you'd pay $15, and then you could go and silkscreen for three, I think it was like a three-hour window. If I had that, I mean, I must have made 50.
Nichole Wong FortiI remember you saying like you would bring the silk screens and you're like, this is messy. This is we're just we're not going to like stay in the lines. We're not doing like. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We're not doing this like neat little illustration. Or layer. Yeah, totally.
Lining it up.
Nichole Wong FortiAnd then I saw your process and you're like, just squeeze this paint on and just do it. And I was like, oh, it was really fun. It was so much fun.
Trenton ReynoldsNicole, can you share just maybe your, a couple of your favorite memories or thoughts looking past the whole experience?
Nichole Wong FortiYeah, I think it was like, I mean, I call it an internship or we can label an internship, but it was really like a start of a friendship, I think, like we worked together, but it was like, I felt so like blessed to be able to like work with you and you were such a it was great. It wasn't just like, you're just going to mail stuff for me. You know, it was, I really got to see how you worked and you treated me like really kindly. And like, just as a person that we were working together, you know, and for like, I guess I was like 18 or 19. No, I was, when I was like 20, 21, which was like so long ago. But I was like, you know, it was just such a great first experience into the creative world and what my life could be like, you know. Everything before that, I think I imagined myself somewhere very structured and being able to see your process and how you live your life and how you live and do your artwork, it just was opened up so much for me you know it really made me see like another world and i think that's what i still remember of our time together it was just like this sounds really like fanciful but it was really
Trenton Reynoldsmagical i don't know it's awesome that's how i remember it nicole where can people find some of
Nichole Wong Fortiyour work or find you online um they can find me on my website nicolewong40.com yeah and i have a children's illustrations and illustration work and animation stuff on there so awesome greatly inspired by sabrina oh buddy i miss you i know i miss you too i'm glad we i'm glad we made it work this has been awesome yeah yay thank you trent thank you so much
Sabrina Ward HarrisonOh, so funny. Let us all go forth and just have the unstructured, structured, awesome experiences of our lives. Amen. Totally.
Amen.
Trenton ReynoldsMany thanks to Nicole Wong Forte. It is, it's pretty amazing to me how Nicole and Sabrina ended up working together. Opportunities for connection and collaboration are there waiting to happen. If you are willing to make an effort and take a small risk in asking. And speaking of interns, we would love to collaborate with you. Check out roominthetrees.com backslash interns. intern for more information about how you can get involved in creating room in the trees from wherever you are in the world. Huge thanks and huge respect to our friend and intern Paul Clark who edited this show. You can see what Paul is up to at pdclark.com. You can find show notes for this episode at roominthetrees.com. You can support us at patreon.com. backslash room and by rating us right now on iTunes. My brother, Brent Reynolds provided the music for this podcast and you can hear more of his music at soundcloud.com by searching for Ventor's Stag Motel. Join us next episode when we talk business with artist, experienced crafter, and friend of the show, Tracy Hansen. Now, go take your shoes off and walk on grass on a warm sidewalk. Find a white rock and pick it up. ♪
Oh, pizza sounds great. Amen. and